What Roh Actually Said to Bush in Sydney
by Richardson ~ September 8th, 2007. Filed under: Diplomacy, Six-Party Talks, U.S.-Korea Relations.
As it turns out, jokes about Roh Moo-hyun being North Korean leader Kim Jong-il’s spokesman aren’t that far off the mark.
Commenter Sonagi has provided a link to the official South Korean version of the Bush-Roh exchange in Sydney, Australia on 07 September, and pointed out that it is substantially different than the English version being used by the White House and circulating in the Western press.
If the Korean version had been translated into English correctly, this could have developed into a substantial international incident; President Roh was clearly being cheeky and assuming.
First the version in Western press (abridged) in which Bush alludes to a peace treaty with North Korea, Roh asks for clarification, Bush clarifies, and Roh – in this incorrect translation – ask for clarification again:
BUSH: . . .when the North Korean leader fully discloses and gets rid of his nuclear weapons programs, that we can achieve a new security arrangement in the Korean Peninsula, that we can have the peace that we all long for. . .
ROH: (As translated.) . . .I think I might be wrong — I think I did not hear President Bush mention the — a declaration to end the Korean War just now. Did you say so, President Bush?
BUSH: I said it’s up to Kim Jong-il as to whether or not we’re able to sign a peace treaty to end the Korean War. He’s got to get rid of his weapons in a verifiable fashion. And we’re making progress toward that goal. It’s up to him.
ROH: I believe that they are the same thing, Mr. President. If you could be a little bit clearer in your message, I think… [note: this is the mistranslated text]
BUSH: I can’t make it any more clear, Mr. President. We look forward to the day when we can end the Korean War. That will end — will happen when Kim Jong-il verifiably gets rid of his weapons programs and his weapons.
However, the Korean text is different for the second time Roh asked for clarification:
▲ 노 대통령 : 똑같은 이야기이다. 똑같은 얘기인데, 김정일 위원장이나 한국 국민들은 그 다음 얘기를 듣고 싶어 한다. (웃음)
A more accurate translation (and note he sort of chuckled before saying this):
Roh: Same story (or talk). Same story, Chairman Kim Jong-il and the South Korean people want to hear the next step (or a different story).
[Update for clarification (heh): By saying that offering a peace treaty after denuclearization was the “same story,” wanting to hear about the “next step” or a “different story” means that Roh as asking Bush to consider a peace treaty before or not contingent upon North Korea denuclearizing. It was also a sycophantic attempt by Roh to score points with Kim Jong-il before the two meet in October for the second ever North-South summit.]
These pictures aren’t high resolution, so I can’t tell if he’s wearing a Kim Il-sung or Kim Jong-il lapel pin; it would be completely in character.
The White House site has a link to ten minutes of video (right side of page) of the meeting, the portion of the conversation above starts at around minute eight. Also see yesterdays post on this topic.
Unlike Western press, which has generally characterized the Bush-Roh exchange as “testy,” most South Korean press has either completely ignored the animosity and smart-alecky remarks by Roh, and some have even focused on the possibility of a peace treaty with Utopian delight (e.g., “New era of peace is coming on the Korean Peninsula,” Hankyoreh).
Roh wants Bush to offer Kim a peace treaty, which would essentially reward Kim for the 09 October 2006 nuclear test. Despite North Korea breaking every nuclear agreement they have made – including the current one, technically – Roh insists on pursuing Kim Dae-jung’s miserably failed “Sunshine Policy.” Apparently Roh still believes he’s the “expert.”
There is a time and a place for a frank display of personal feelings on these topics; a televised meeting was not that time or place. As some have noted, his translator saved him from most of the West knowing he was making a complete fool of himself and South Korea. Roh’s disrespect for Bush further points to a ROK President far out of his reckoning, a true amateur.
Commenter USinKorea (blog) suggests that Roh took a calculated risk that the international community despises Bush so much that he could pull off a bit of diplomatic jackassery with no discernable consequences. Thanks to translations, almost no one seems to have noticed what a gaffe this should have been.
Only about three months until the election, and about four until Roh is out of office. Not a moment too soon, for U.S.-ROK relations or for the North Korean people.
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Also see; ROK Drop the Marmot’s, DPRK Forum, Korean Unification Studies, and OneFreeKorea.
- U.S. White House transcript (DOC)
- ROK Blue House transcript (PDF)
September 8th, 2007 at 6:12 pm
[...] See DPRK Studies as well. [...]
September 8th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
The Blue House blog has a video clip of the exchange. Curiously, the clip cuts off just as Roh is delivering his mistranslated line. I did note while watching that the interpreter did get cut off. It would have been interesting to hear how she would have finished.
http://blog.naver.com/cwdblog?Redirect=Log&logNo=140042234879&vid=0
I thought that Roh throwing back his head and laughing was an expression of embarassment or discomfort.
September 8th, 2007 at 7:06 pm
I should clarify:
I did note while watching that the interpreter did get cut off by Bush when he gave his ‘testy’ response, “I can’t be any clearer.”
September 8th, 2007 at 7:34 pm
[...] [Update 4: What Roh actually said to Bush appears to have been even almost universally mistranslated to airbrush out the venom. Two commenters who are fluent Korean speakers say it was really more like this: “You keep saying the same thing…. Chairman Kim Jong Il and the Korean people are waiting to hear more from you,” or “Same story. Same story, Chairman Kim Jong-il and the South Korean people want to hear a different story.” See this comment, this one, and this one below, and this post at DPRK Studies.] [...]
September 8th, 2007 at 7:40 pm
And I wish to disagree with this statement in your entry:
If the Korean version had been translated into English correctly, this could have developed into a substantial international incident; President Roh was clearly being cheeky and assuming. “
Even if Roh’s remarks had been translated, I don’t think this meeting would have become a “substantial international incident.” Roh wasn’t saying anything new, and I don’t think he was being cheeky or assuming. Roh looked uncomfortable.
Please pardon the stream-of-consciousness multiple posts. I am multi-tasking, making gazpacho from scratch and blogging about it while web surfing other sites. I’m eating the gazpacho as I type this. Darn good stuff.
September 8th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Sonagi,
The White House site has 10 min of video posted (right side of page), and includes Roh’s smartass comments. I read the laugh (which I watched a couple of times), taken with the comment, as an extra level of being a smart-aleck.
Also, here you said, “I must conclude that Roh is not a fool but a smart-aleck,” and “cheeky” is a synonym of “smart-alecky.”
I think Bush will let a lot of things slide, but if his obvious displeasure at the milder translated version of Roh’s comment was any indication, how much more so Roh ‘clearly’ lobbying for Kim Jong-il, and in such an inappropriate venue? New or not, that level of uncouthness is just amazing. No, I think that would have ‘clearly’ crossed a line and set off an incident in which Roh might have had to offer a ’sincere apology.’
As for comment #2, I don’t need an further clarification. Yeah, wearing that out. #3, no problem about the comments, and the soup sounds good!
September 8th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
“Also, here you said, “I must conclude that Roh is not a fool but a smart-aleck,” and “cheeky” is a synonym of “smart-alecky.”
I made that comment based on the text of Roh’s remarks before having seen him actually speak. Describing Roh as Kim Jong-il’s spokesman best summarizes Roh’s remarks.
September 8th, 2007 at 10:11 pm
What Roh did is just not done in diplomacy. Such comments and behavior should be left inside the private meeting - particularly when purported allies are in the press lounge.
September 8th, 2007 at 11:19 pm
And what Gunther points out is what Roh doesn’t get and Koreans have shown problems with in general.
Some expats throw around words like immature and such on the people as a whole. I am not saying that though the two opinions have some overlap.
I am saying the Korean tendency toward emotion and lack of substantive leadership experience on the regional and international scene leads to things like this video-op…
Roh, like much of Korea and the world, witnesses the horrible beating Bush continually gets from (seemingly) all sides, and they see he is at the end of his time in office and overshadowed by the race to replace him —- so —- Roh feels free to let his emotions and sense of pride and Korean-ness (meaning nationalist pride) get the better of his reason — it blinds his thinking and he lets go with it…
Whereas elsewhere, particularly in the Euro-centric sphere of diplomacy and public intercourse, where the leaders and the societies have more experience on the big stage, polite smiles and subtle words would be used to slap Bush around a little or the leaders would simply wait until they got off-stage in a more 1-on-1 setting with the press and needled the US.
And whatever my conservative foreign or domestic opionions might have been over the years —- I did think Bush should have been much more diplomatic in handling Kim Dae Jung in that (in)famous exchange for a similar video-op at the start of his term in office.
Kim might have put Bush on the spot, but a seasoned national leader would have effectively been more subtle at that moment and then made sure his people immediately go the message out to the press defining the US position in opposition to whatever KDJ said that crossed the US policy line Bush had in mind to pursue….
September 8th, 2007 at 11:48 pm
[...] extraordinaire Sonagi, what Roh actually said is a whole lot "clearer" to me now and DPRK Studies has an updated posting on Roh’s actual comments that sums things up very [...]
September 9th, 2007 at 12:18 am
In my opinion, if Roh’s past diplomacy is any indication of peace negotiations, it is time to put a fork in it, because it is done.
There could be a peace treaty, if we pay up. The Sunshine Policy and the first summit should be good indicators of such diplomacy. To me,the mistranslation is kind of silly and worth a second look, but I am sure you good folks see the bigger picture as well.
Kim Jong Il is saying “Show me da money.”
September 9th, 2007 at 12:26 am
Oh and I should make myself clearer. The failed Sunshine Policy and the first summit was not Roh’s doing, but just comparisons of past diplomacy. I should have said if the next summit is like the last summit, then we can expect pretty much the status which is no surprise anyway.
Whatever the case may be, Kim needs to be paid.
September 9th, 2007 at 12:52 am
I didn’t even think of the up coming summit….
In that light, it does start to look much more definatively like Roh did not just mispeak or have a brain fart — he was laying the ground work for North Korea —– making his putting South and North Korea side-by-side on the “peace treaty” front look very much like a concerted effort to set the stage against the US in this time period….
September 9th, 2007 at 1:16 am
[...] this post in DPRK Studies, titled What Roh Actually Said to Bush in Sydney, describes how a quick-witted [...]
September 9th, 2007 at 2:04 am
In that South Korea (Rhee regime) chose not to participate as a signatory to the 1953 Armistice Agreement, it’s been a little awkward for President Roh Moo-hyun to ‘bring home the bacon’ (in this case, a peace treaty) as his tribute payment to Dear Leader in the upcoming summit.
So, ‘hows about’ we cajole some concessions out of the US at a televised conference … yes! … while showing the world that, yet again, Roh ‘kowtows to nobody’ … and all of this while calling out Kim Jong-il’s name (for an extra 10 points).
At one time I considered Roh’s behavior appalling … but in light of his track record as the ‘human rights lawyer of record for all the Koreans’ (including the POWs he still pointedly ignores … oh, that’s right, I keep on forgetting about the ‘quiet diplomacy’), I am now just saddened by it all.
September 9th, 2007 at 3:59 am
Just an advance warning:
This article has been submitted to digg.com (http://www.dprkstudies.org/2007/09/08/what-roh-actually-said-to-bush-in-sydney/)
, and after 9 hours it is almost up to 30 diggs. There is a slight possibility that it could make the digg.com popular list within the next 15 hours, in which case it could bring down this site’s server with all the traffic.
I’d install the WP-cache plugin for wordpress as soon as possible if I were you…
September 9th, 2007 at 7:58 am
Jack & USinKorea, on summits;
In June 2000, Kim Dae-jung apparently made strong suggestions or promises to Kim Jong-il about how he (KDJ) could influence U.S. policy towards North Korea. Of course this led to some uncomfortable meetings in the U.S. for KDJ. Roh appears to have been trying to somehow pressure Bush into promising something about a peace treaty, apparently something that does not involve denuclearization, since he referred to that as something like the ‘same story.’ Even attempting it in that forum was wrong, being a smartass to boot was just plain bizarre.
James,
Thanks for the heads up – it’s now at 35 (about 4 hours later). I have WP-Cache installed and will activate it soon (I usually leave it off as it interferes with the rotating banner image).
September 9th, 2007 at 8:41 am
[...] into English correctly, this could have developed into a substantial international incident..read more | digg story [?] Share [...]
September 9th, 2007 at 8:57 am
Congrats on the Digg story. And thanks for the clarification on the summit.
September 9th, 2007 at 10:11 am
This 2006 Asia Times article compares/contrasts Roh Moo-hyun and Kim Jong-il. Goes a bit too far in some places, but is spot on about the summit:
Read the rest here.
September 9th, 2007 at 7:20 pm
Richardson, that is a good source. Still, the price is going to be high for any summit involving Kim. All he cares about is survival no matter what it takes including lying and disengagement. But hey, what else can we come to expect from the little man on the throne wielding the power over life and death of millions by the wave of his hand…
September 12th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
[Overseas view] What Roh wanted from Bush
Some observers suspect that this exchange was a deliberate performance to demonstrate Roh’s bona fides to the North before the October North-South summit.
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2880428
September 12th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
That’s not far-fetched at all. From the article;
September 12th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
Coming at this from almost any frame of reference, I have a really hard time understanding why Roh does and says these things. Is there really that big of a base in Korea to applaud things like this? Does it help a potential successor from his party in the general election?
September 12th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
I’m far out of the Korean-street loop these days, but I’d have to guess that it will not win votes. I doubt it will lose votes too, however. There are times when Korean society as a whole just doesn’t get how a fair chunk of the rest of the world views things. The Hitler bar(s) is one example. Koreans are not generally anti-semitic. They don’t think about Jews or Israel that much. But, they also could not understand it at all when expats and the foreign press made such a big deal out of it.
My guess is that Bush is so disliked by Korean society and in the press around the world — they will not get why Roh’s actions and words are a big deal to many.
Also, the opposition party is not in a good enough position to run wild with this or something similar, because they are not going to reverse SK’s Northern policy fundamentally even if they do with the Blue House. They fear the economic reprecussions of a Northern collapse, and they will do what they believe they must to prevent that from happening…
So….domestically…….I think Roh was in a safe enough position to do what he did….
September 12th, 2007 at 7:37 pm
Are you the same Admiral of Sinocidal and occasional commenter at TPD?
September 13th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
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