Virginia Tech Shooter South Korean; Cho Seung-Hui
by Richardson ~ April 17th, 2007. Filed under: America, WTF?.Final update: Any new information will get a new post.
The WaPo has a good summary of the entire event. Also don’t miss the post on this at OneFreeKorea.
Of intererest but not related to this specific story is that of Woo Bum-Kon (우범근), a “a Korean police officer who carried out the worst incident of spree killing in known history, killing 58 (including himself), and wounding 35 in Gyeongsangnam-do, South Korea,” 27 April 1982.
Update 14: A “disturbed” Cho was apparently referred to counseling, on anti-depressants, and his note certainly sounds like that of an English major:
The gunman suspected of carrying out the Virginia Tech massacre that left 33 people dead was identified Tuesday as a English major whose creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school’s counselling service.
News reports also said that he may have been taking medication for depression, that he was becoming increasingly violent and erratic, and that he left a note in his dorm in which he railed against “rich kids,” “debauchery” and “deceitful charlatans” on campus.
Update 13: Cho left a note:
The man who shot dead 32 people on an American university campus reportedly left a note complaining about “rich kids” and saying: “You made me do this.” . . . Cho has been described as a loner, while one of his teachers has said his creative writing was “troubled”.
On a side note, considering that he graduation from a U.S. high school in 2003 at about 19 years of age, and is now a university senior four years later, it is highly unlikely that he served in the South Korean military.
Update 12: Earlier reports indicated Cho immigrated at age three, while this states eight, although they could be missing earlier trips:
Cho, a South Korean national, was a legal resident of the United States, emigrating from his native country when he was 8, according to the Department of Homeland Security.
[. . .]
Police searched the residence at the home address he listed in Centerville, a suburb of Washington, on Monday night. . . Neighbors and a postal worker who delivered mail to the residence described the family as friendly but quiet. . .
[. . .]
Cho was a loner, according to Larry Hincker, the associate vice president for university relations. . . Cho “was very quiet, always by himself,” neighbor Abdul Shash told The Associated Press. He said the family was quiet, and Cho often played basketball, according to an AP report.
Fairfax County Schools in Virginia issued a statement Tuesday saying Cho graduated from Westfield High School in Chantilly, Virginia, in 2003. The school’s Web site describes it as an “Honors” high school.
Court records obtained by the AP show Cho got a speeding ticket from Virginia Tech police on April 7. He was cited for going 44 mph in a 25 mph zone, the AP reported, with a court date set for May 23.
Update 11: Although Cho immigrated to the U.S. at age three, he spent a lot of time outside the U.S., presumably in South Korea, and has lived in America for 14 years:
Immigration records maintained by the Department of Homeland Security show that Cho was born in South Korea on Jan. 18, 1984 and entered the United States through Detroit on Sept. 2, 1992. He had last renewed his green card on Oct. 27, 2003.
Update 10: No new bio info, but another photo:
Cho Seung-Hui, a South Korean in his senior year as an English major who lived on campus, was probably the only shooter, police said. Investigators have linked a gun found in Norris Hall, where Cho kill 30 people and himself, with the deaths of two others killed in a campus dorm earlier in the day. “The evidence has not led us to where we can say with all certainty the same shooter was involved in both instances,” said Col. Steve Flaherty of Virginia state police.
Update 9: The South Korean government is expressing condolences, as well as concern of possible racial trouble to come:
South Korea’s Foreign Ministry said Tuesday the government hoped the Virginia Tech shootings, allegedly carried out by a 23-year-old South Korean native, would not “stir up racial prejudice or confrontation.”
Update 8: More info and photo of Cho Seung-Hui released:
Cho, 23, a Virginia Tech student and a native of South Korea, was a resident alien who lived in Centerville, Va. Police say the senior English major, who lived in Harper Hall dormitory. . . Legal permanent resident aliens may purchase firearms in the state of Virginia.
Update 7: Described as a “loner,” Cho had lived in the U.S. since age three, although he retained his South Korean citizenship.
Update 6: Was Cho’s firearm purchase legal? If he was a permanent resident (green card holder) as reported, probably:
The Virginia State Police Web site at http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm addresses the issue of whether one needs to have U.S. citizenship to be eligible to purchase a firearm.
The site says: A buyer who is not a citizen of the United States must have lawful alien status and must establish that he or she is a resident of a state by providing a valid photo identification and documentation such as a utility bill or lease agreement which would establish that he or she has resided in the state for at least 90 days prior to the date of the sale.
Update 5: Bill that could have stopped massacre defeated last year:
[Last year] the state’s General Assembly quashed a bill that would have given qualified college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus. . . Backers of the bill wanted to prohibit public universities from making “rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit … from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun.” (emphasis added)
Update 4: From WorldNetDaily.com:
Cho Seung-Hui was a resident alien enrolled as an undergrad student with an English major at Virginia Tech. His U.S. residence was established in Centreville, Va.
[...]
The shooter was “wearing a vest covered in clips was just unloading on their door, going from classroom to classroom … they said it never seemed like it was going to stop and there was just blood all over” … The shooter had two handguns and several clips of ammunition…
Update 3: The shooter was, “. . .identified as a 23-year-old South Korean national who was a senior undergraduate student at the college.” At 23 he may or may not have finished his mandatory military service in South Korea, which is approximately two years.
Cho has been also been identified as the gunman for both shootings:
Police said he was 23 and that one of two guns recovered was used in both of the two separate shooting incidents at the campus on Monday. “The evidence has not led us to say with all certainty that the same shooter was involved in both shootings,” Steven Flaherty, superintendent of the Virginia State Police, told a news conference.
Update 2: Also see this from Hot Air and this at the Marmot’s Hole.
Update 1: Via ABC:
Seung Hui Cho, a permanent resident of the United States, a Korean national and a Virginia Tech student has been identified as the gunman in the shootings that left 33 people dead on the Virginia Tech campus Monday…
[...]
Cho’s identitiy has been confirmed with a positive fingerprint match on the guns used in the rampage and with immigration materials. It is believed that he was the shooter in both incidents yesterday. Sources say Cho was carrying a backpack that contained receipts for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm pistol…
Original post: The Virginia Tech shooter is reported as being Cho Seung-Hui, a South Korean student, although this is an initial report and not widely confirmed.
I have to wonder what sort of military training he had, if any.
April 17th, 2007 at 9:56 am
While this incident may generate some generalized discussions about American immigration policy, I highly doubt there will be a massive backlash against South Koreans. Compare that to how different the Korean reaction would be if an American living in Korea went on a rampage at one of their universities…there would literally be anti-American rioting in the streets.
April 17th, 2007 at 9:56 am
I thought all Korean males had mandatory service in either the police or the military upon HS graduation. I could be wrong, though.
April 17th, 2007 at 10:04 am
Stewart;
Yes, a tragic irony in this is the amount of protest and hate over the crimes of GIs in Korea. If an American student had done this in the ROK, there would be protests in the streets for sure.
Aaron;
Military service is usually two years after high school, and lasts for just under two years. In some cases, however, the student is allowed to finish university before military service, although they may incur an extra year of service, or be an officer. As Cho is reportedly a U.S. resident, he may or may not have completed his service in Korea at all. Also, at age 23, it’s hard to tell if since he could have started school early and completed his service, or started late and not done it.
April 17th, 2007 at 10:08 am
Stewart, you’re wrong. As a person of color (not Korean), I fear there will be an enormous and ignorant backlash not only against South Koreans in America, but potentially against any Asian-American who happens to accidentally be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I will concede the national rage so far is lower and cooler than it would have been had the gunman been another minority. If this killer had been Mexican or another Latino, whites across the blogosphere would be stretching out ropes and grousing about immigration; had he been black, there would be riots already and several African-Americans would have been physically attacked. The N word would be popping up like daisies all over the country.
But no, this is just “the model minority”. A lesser problem.
Nevertheless, Asian-Americans everywhere had better brace for some of the ugliest verbal racism and anti-Asian incidents since the anti-Chinese horrors of San Francisco’s 19th century.
Whereas if this had been a white gunman, the media’s and nation’s obsession this morning would be “How could such a sweet young man have gone wrong?” Whites are racist. Plain and simple. For them, everything boils down to skin color. Sad but true.
Asian friends, be careful these next few weeks. It’s your turn.
April 17th, 2007 at 10:14 am
Stephanie,
Perhaps you are not familiar with the anti-American protests in South Korea, where literally hundreds of thousands have participated. I believe that Stewart refers to that sort of reaction when he says it won’t happen like that I the U.S. I have to agree with him.
That said, I do believe we will see a rise of incidents of violence against Koreans and Asians, but nothing like the massive and organized spectacles seen in South Korea, as in response to an accident where two girls were killed in the summer of 2002, for example.
April 17th, 2007 at 10:57 am
Stephanie,
Your statement of “Whites are racist. Plain and simple”, speaks volumes of what type of person you truly are also.
April 17th, 2007 at 11:00 am
Yeah, I didn’t catch that. Stephanie; to make such an unqualified statement I’d say you’re the racist.
April 17th, 2007 at 11:00 am
For heaven’s sake, of all the damn people in the world did it have to be a Korean?
April 17th, 2007 at 11:30 am
Stephanie #4 wrote:
“If this killer had been Mexican or another Latino, whites across the blogosphere would be stretching out ropes and grousing about immigration; had he been black, there would be riots already and several African-Americans would have been physically attacked. “
Now I don’t recall any shooting rampages by Latinos, but a 1993 racially motivated shooting spree by an African-American man on a Long Island commuter train left 6 dead and 19 injured. Could you please refresh our memories, Stephanie, about the riots and revenge attacks that took place in the wake of the shooting spree? Thanks.
April 17th, 2007 at 11:35 am
Stewart wrote:
“While this incident may generate some generalized discussions about American immigration policy, I highly doubt there will be a massive backlash against South Koreans. Compare that to how different the Korean reaction would be if an American living in Korea went on a rampage at one of their universities…there would literally be anti-American rioting in the streets.”
One reason why different reactions are expected is that shooting rampages are extremely rare in Korea, so Koreans would be expected to react more strongly.
April 17th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
People have the memory of a knat.
If any minority group was going to get lynched in the US, it would have been Arab-looking people right after 9/11. I expected a bloodbath in reaction, but the amount of violence was minimal.
I am sure some like Stephanie will find some examples to point out, but I’d like to know what country would have had that kind of event happen and have roughly the same number of revenge attacks occur?
And as Sonagi noted, a sad fact is these kinds of events happen in the US once or twice or so every decade, and have been done by a range of ethnic individuals, the chances of rampant Asian lynching is tiny.
April 17th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
On whether he had military training or not, I don’t think it would come into play much as far as his shooting ability.
When I went through the police training, we had several ex-Marines and 1 retired Ranger, and they were just like the others of us who had not had pistol training before.
April 17th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
For a rifle, perhaps, but problem not for a sidearm.
Also, he graduated from HS in 2003, or 19, so it is highly unlikely that he spent 2 years in the ROKA, and then made it to his senior year in university 2 years after that. I don’t think he’d been to the military.
April 17th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
The hits to my site are going through the roof and heading for the moon.
I am honestly seriously conflicted by that…
On the one hand, many Americans who would never have learned about the reality in Korea have a chance to do so.
on the other hand, a large amount of this traffic will not bother to read much of anything on the site and it will just be something to get their spleen up even more…
I thought about taking the site down for a week, but I decided against it…..still….
April 17th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
I live in Salt Lake, and last month a Bosnian refugee went on a rampage at a local mall, and killed five people. I have seen absolutely no evidence of a backlash, or anger against Bosnians, or any other refugees. I think that is because the vast majority of people understand that his actions were motivated by something other than his race or national identity. My point is that in South Korea, they seem unable or unwilling to recognize that some of the tragedies where Americans have been involved had nothing to do with the perpetrators being white or American. I believe that South Korean society is somewhat immature when it comes to race relations, probably in part because of the homogenious nature of their society.
April 17th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
Stephanie:
Hon, you’re a racist, and I hope you find healing for that because attitudes like yours only contribute to the problem.
April 17th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
As noted above, traffic to my site today has been like the space shuttle taking off, and so far, I’ve only gotten one piece of hate mail and it was tame.
I would like it better if they would at least read the site, but I get one of these “why are you so anti-US” emails about every 3 months. So, it seems some Americans who just look at the pictures and videos believe I’m in Hanchongryon. So, I would expect my hate mail to skyrocket with my web traffic if Americans were sure to go hog wild into anti-Koreanism or Asianism due to this shooting…
April 17th, 2007 at 4:47 pm
[...] 6: For those who want to know more, see Richardson’s post. The killer may have had a Cyworld page, too, but it’s not confirmed, and it’s just [...]
April 17th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
I was interviewed by a reporter for Newsweek over the phone, and one of the questions that was raised immediately was “Will there be a backlash against Asian- or Korean-Americans?”
My response (which I hope the periodical will use) was that most Americans are sensible enough to consider this an act of a deranged, troubled young man, not that of an “Asian” or “Korean” person.
By the way, I live not far away from Centreville, VA (the new Koreatown in NoVA) whence this alleged shooter hails.
Lastly, I sense a certain — how should I put it delicately — glee of sorts among some of the expat bloggers in Korea, as if to say “Koreans treat us horribly when one of us commit a crime in Korea; now let’s see how much better we are when one of you commit a horrific crime in our country.”
While understandable, this kind of sentiment is unproductive and unhealthy, I think and says more about the psyche of the expats than about what is going on now.
April 17th, 2007 at 5:25 pm
Everyone,
I am a Korean student enrolled in a grad program in the US.
To make a long story short, South Korean does not hate people with US nationality. Some time they get mad becuase they found US aftermath not acceptable in any criterion.
It is hard to explain such a convoluted relations between Korean civilians and GI in the country, which has been accumulated and twisted for a long time.
But I just suggest to stop labling Korean as horrifying riots or something you have seen from LA in the past, and think about it.
South Koreans are just people like people in America. Just like you reading this poor English.
They love internet, they through trash talks eachother on line, even through cells.
If they are angry, there must be a reason.
Okay, one man or a group of people can go crazy.
But not one thousand at a time.
I don’t think it is very hard to put your position into theirs.
Some of you might know something called as SOFA better than me.
Let’s just say that SOFA treats american criminal in really wierd manner. (not to mention that Korean gov. has only limited authority even for a case that a US soldier killed a Korean woman in its own territory. Now it is changing though..)
It’s really complicated to explain with my limited English.
Just to say that Korean does not hate American because they are American. Ask your friend who went there about this.
By the way, I don’t see any evidence of backlash from people surrounding me. I appreciate my American friend for that.
And I am really sorry for the victims and their families.
We all have a difficult time together as mankind, not a citizen of a nation.
Thank you for your patience with my poor English.
April 17th, 2007 at 5:40 pm
[...] DPRK Studies [...]
April 17th, 2007 at 5:40 pm
Tha Korean;
The general consensus I am hearing is that the shooter was mentally imbalanced and went over the edge due to a breakup, and not due to anything to do with nationality or ethnicity. Of course there will always be some that go down that path, but not most.
In regard to the SOFA, you said:
Actually that’s incorrect. When a U.S. soldier commits a crime while off-duty, the Republic of Korea has primary jurisdiction. When a U.S. soldier commits a crime while on-duty, the U.S. has primary jurisdiction. I am not surprised about your confusion on that, given the amount of misinformation in South Korea on that topic.
This page contains several documents, including the SOFA and related.
April 17th, 2007 at 5:49 pm
James,
I corresponded with her via email (she was actually trying to contact you), and told her much the same; that I don’t expect much of a backlash aside from isolated incidents, and that, “I do not think this has anything to do with Asian or Korean culture; this seems to be the classic story of a mentally imbalanced individual who had girl problems.”
I also steered her towards a few other bloggers of note.
April 17th, 2007 at 6:32 pm
the killer race has absolutely nothing to do with it. WIll there be backlash? sure will ’cause that is just the way American society is …racism is very REFINED.
and I dont agree with Stephanie and say that ALL white AMericans are racist….I will say that most are, yet they will never admit it either they will just protest that they are not. Most are ashamed that “other” folks really know that they are racist. NOW how can a person could live with that kind of duplicity ? I can only say it is the American way ..to grin in your face like a Chekshrire cat and then behave in a racist manner behind your back.
/
April 17th, 2007 at 6:45 pm
Just most, eh? But if we say we’re not, we’re just not admitting it. Reminds me of how to find out if someone is a witch or not, something about floating and sinking…
April 17th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
James Na wrote:
“While understandable, this kind of sentiment is unproductive and unhealthy, I think and says more about the psyche of the expats than about what is going on now.”
THE expats? I hope you meant the expats expressing the sentiments you described and not expats in general.
Moreover, have you read the comments left by ethnic Koreans on the English K-blogs? In sharp contrast to your rational response, they seem to be anticipating group victimhood, and their attitudes are mirrored in South Korean media coverage of the crime.
Check out the Naver news cartoon for April 18 and netizen reactions in the comment thread.
Unhealthy psyches all around, James.
In closing, I’d like to express great hope that not only the families of the victims but also the family of deeply troubled shooter are comforted with love and support from their communities. I pray that the souls of all the dead - the shooter and his victims - rest in peace.
April 17th, 2007 at 7:29 pm
Yes. Obviously I did not refer to ALL expats.
I will not argue with children, whatever their age or ethnicity.
Unfortunately, our educational system does a fine job of teaching group identity and grievances (that was sarcasm). I think Asian immigrants (indeed immigrants in general) are generally more immune to that, but as they assimilate they seem to acquire the victimhood mantle rather quickly.
It’s a bizzarre thing to shoot 32 people because of “rich kids.” The answer in my view is to work hard and become rich (the best revenge is living well as the saying goes), something most immigrants seem to grasp intuitively, but our morbid sense of fascination with and idealization of victimhood is increasingly shared widely.
I do not read Naver news.
April 17th, 2007 at 11:30 pm
Richardson,
I know this forum is not for discussion on SOFA.
Also, as I said earlier, you might know better than me on that issue.
But I came back because I think the point I was trying to make was not delivered in clear manner.
May be my description on the problem of SOFA was incorrect, but you can take it as approximation, since your description is found to be also overspecific in that it only applies the version that has been recently changed. (I believe it is still limited when it goes in practice.)
The point I was making was not even that Koreans are angry because SOFA sucks.
SOFA has lots of problem as you may agree.
The point I was trying to make is more about general ways that people react when they feel they are not well respected.
With that said, protest described as anti-US should be interpreted as anti-humanistic or anti-irrational administration that such odd relationship generates.
I was just trying to draw a line of this discussion against moving on some issues of national relationship that has been structured in some complicated ways between S Korea and the US.
By the way, most of us still appreciates for the blood that the US has shed on our land and hope such relationship is hard to break.
Thank you.
My condolescence with everybody affected this incidence.
April 18th, 2007 at 12:55 am
Hi everyone, I am Korean American. And I dont understand why the race matters so much. I’m not just saying that because the killer happend to be Korean. It would be pretty much the same if the killer was white, black, or any other races. I mean yes, I’m disappointed that the shooter was Korean, but it’s not Korean’s fault that it happend, right? I mean it’s all over the Korean news as it is in U.S.
I find this news very biased, because the way they have South Korean written in the title. I mean if the shooter happend to be white, for example German, would they have the title Virginia Tech Shooter white or German?
Most likely not.
If I am treated differently by my peers from now on because of that incident, I would be hurt, but then I would know who my true friends are.
So I conculde, this is a tragedy, but it’s not Korean’s (in general) fault.
April 18th, 2007 at 1:09 am
The media have reported Cho as “South Korean,” because he held ROK citizenship. He had permanent residency (green card) in the U.S.
So, legally and technically, he was a South Korean national, likely bearing ROK passport, and was not an American citizen.
Now, who knows how he considered himself. He seemed to have had an identity issue. If I were to guess, he probably thought of himself as a Korean-American, having grown up in the US since age 8. But that would be nothing more than speculation on my part.
I would imagine the media would’ve reported a German who grew up in the US, but holds German citizenship as a “German national.”
April 18th, 2007 at 4:52 am
@James Na #25:
Nuff said!
April 18th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
COMMENT to Cecilia. In 1988 when my husband became a citizen of USA. I remember clearly the words of the judge. YOU ARE NOT…. Spanish American, Mexican American, Korean American, etc… You are AMERICAN. That is something many seem to forget…
April 18th, 2007 at 7:54 pm
Lori;
Well said, and should be said often and loudly from the roof tops.
Lindsay;
I dislike stupid people. Show me a stupid race and I’ll fit your bill. But as all race’s have both stupid and intelligent people, I’ll continue to either like or dislike individuals based on their actions and words. Sorry, but there are many people who feel this way and a good number are white. Again, sorry about that.
April 18th, 2007 at 9:42 pm
First to all the victims of this horrible act and families, I give my condolences.
I lived in S Korea for over six years, and I am sure some people will agree with me that have ever lived there as an ex-pat.
First, I was there when the girls got killed, by accident, the Ohno inncident, you know the speed skater. Kreans giving him death threats, and my gosh the guy was just an athlete My point is when something happens in Korea by am american, or any other foreigner, the public goes in outrage. Demonstations, burning of flags, putting signs in restaurants, no americans allowed and the list goes on. The blame when things go bad in Korea, it is never their fault, the blame will always go to an outsider
Another point I want to make. Korea will also say he is not Korean, but American to safe face. But, they will accept Hines Ward, and Michelle Wie as Korean, and they are not even from Korea. Hines Ward yes, he was born there at that is all, and of mixed race, which to this day is not accepted in Korea. The Korean media though tried to portray him as Korean, along with Michelle Wie, who is from Hawaii. Now this nut case from Korea who is Korean, will be portrayed as being american, and it is Americas fault. Again, I have lived there, and I know this will happen. Put the blame on someone else. If an american did this in Korea. Koreans would be running through the streets with pitchforks, and torches going after any white ex-pat.
As for americans in general, I do not see this happening there. You know the red-neck type, but in general, you will not see protest, you will not see flag burnig, and media propaganda blaming Korea, and the people of Korea for this matter.
When it all comes down to it. What happened was done by a sick SOB. It does not matter where he is from and what nation. Many people have problems such as his, or even worse. Do they massacre people, no. This guy deserves where he is going straight to.
As for Korea. I do not hold Korea responsible, or the people. I met great Korean people in Korea, with the kindest of hearts. This guy, that killed all of these people, is just evil. Race, country, skin color, no matter.
The media in Korea for sure is always at its worst to bring such nationalistic views to the Korean people. As , I said if this happened in Korea by a foreigner, you just have to imagime the results.
April 18th, 2007 at 11:43 pm
@ Tha Korean
First I want to let you know that I had no problem with your english. I think it’s damn good. I can not write more than a couple of words in your language, and I still have some trouble with mine.
That being said, I feel I must respond to your post.
You asked that, “stop labling korean as horrifying riots or something you have seen from LA in the past, and think about it.” also somethink about one thousand at a time can not go crazy.
Also, “just to say that korean does not hate american because they are american. Ask your friend for that.”
My response is that I don’t have to ask anyone. I was in korea the last time in Jan of 2002 thru Jan of 2004. I SAW IT! Thousands of people, burning the American flag. I saw the looks of hate on the subway for my white skin. Was locked in my camp because of the threats of violence directed at americans. I saw the signs that stated, “Americans not welcome”.
You said the marches were really anti-humanistic or anti-irrational.
Well, it was the american flag they were burning. It was I that could not travel the subway because of threats to AMERICANS.
This is not make believe. I was there in uijongbu and seoul. It was not something from LA, or the past.
Thanks for the memories of a peaceful and friendly Korea, that I did not receive!
What you don’t know is that few GIs WANT to be sent to Korea. Few return from korea ever wanting to return. If I were still a soldier, I would rather return to Iraq than Korea. At least it is real there.
But I thank you for saying, “most of us appreciate the blood the US shed on our land and hope such relationship is hard to break.”
I believe the number of Americans that died for your country was around 35,000. Not Sure. About the same number of Americans that are now taken from there familys (most not all,[Officers]) and serve in your country today. You might think of each one as representing an american that died there. Maby. If it is appreciated.
As you said, “PEOPLE REACT WHEN THEY FEEL THEY ARE NOT WELL RESPECTED.”
It goes both ways you know.
April 19th, 2007 at 1:01 am
Stephanie #4 wrote; “whites are Racist—for them, everything boils down to skin color. Sad but true.”
This is a sad but true statement of the bigest problem that “people of color” face today. You expect to be treated in the same manner in which you feel toward white people.
I know that you as a “person of color”, enjoy your feeling of victimhood. I know you do not like white people. I know you need someone to blame. I also know that this is your problem and I hope you stop blaming another race for your problems.
After all, it is your men that make millions of dollars degrading you and your sisters in song every day. You don’t do anything about it, except accuse another race of holding you down and calling you names.
Sad indeed Stephanie!
As to the N-word, the only people that can say that are n-word people, and they do it often. Those are the same people who make millions calling their women “Ho’s and bitch-s. But thats ok because it’s n-word people calling n-word people those most respectable names.
After all, It’s hard out here for a Pimp. Right?
The opportunity for betterment is there and asian people in my area grab it, get an education and get jobs. The “people of color” in my area tend to reject this opportunity and cry about past wrongs that their grandparents can’t remember, while demanding free money.
There again, this is not my fault. It is theirs.
You would call me racist for telling you what you should already know. No more free handouts. Slaves worked for their food, and got it. A man workes better on a full belly. I know I do. I sometimes wonder what happened. To go from a proud slave to “people of color” calling their women Ho’s and demanding a handout
I’m not trying to put anyone or race down, the asian people had a hard time at first but they learned that the only people that would help them were there own people, and they did.
Don’t call me a racist, I’m not. I have friends from mexico and some from trinidad and even korea. They like me, so, I like them back.
Non of whats going on with “people of color” in america is my fault. Not my people. Your People, and they need new leadership. Sharpton and Jackson, were usefull once I’m sure. Not any longer. After the charges were droped on the duke trial, they came out looking like what they seem to be, a couple of racist.
April 19th, 2007 at 1:11 am
paul, y do u live in Korea if u don have good impression of Korean people? i know i admit that some korean ppl were going crazy when the ohno, and soldier things happened. But it’s SOME ppl, not all of them.
Anywhere is the same, i looked at few websites yesterday, ppl were saying “the killer was FUCKING Korean”, “Fuck Korea” stuff like that. I don’t see every American ppl say that though..
it’s SOME ppl. u know.
I feel really bad about what happened, i can only imagine what vitims’ family and friends feel. it’s really sad…
I hope this will never happen again..
April 19th, 2007 at 1:32 am
And i don’t even know why the nationality should be an issue right now.
I think the damn law about the gun should be the issue. Every day ppl die from gun shot in States. I live in Canada and it is really rare to hear the news about gun shot.
April 19th, 2007 at 1:46 am
hey dan guy, what u r saying is pissing me off.
“Slaves worked for their food, and got it”
April 19th, 2007 at 1:54 am
oh I guess I cannot swear on this website?
So bad, I can not swear to this dan guy..
you are saying “people of color” are not doing great? dan what kind of area do you live? I feel bad for you.
You think you are so good huh? I only see you as a racist or L oser who wants to show off himself on internet.
April 19th, 2007 at 10:37 am
Dan,
Thank you for your sharing your hard experience you had when you serve your service in Korea.
I totally admit that happened in the past, but also sure it will keep happening in the future. We all hope the degree will change though.
Point I was making was to ‘draw a line’ of this discussion, to suggest focusing on the incidence only.
Guuss my involvement rather provoked another controversy.
Although all blame shoudl I take, I would like to insist one more time that this discussion should not go to a direction that ties nationalities.
One and the major reason I oppose to debate on national character is that it simplifies complex characters of people, which reminds you guys of what, racism.
Racism turn people down to thier skin color, which leads to a relationship that appears to have no common ground. Conflics only follows after that, obviously, and we saw through history. I believe no one know better than this ‘American’, if you excuse my nationalizing you guys just for this time.
I don’t believe it is very hard for you guys to agree.
Dan, one more time, I agree that most of GI have felt ridiculous to the reaction that Korean made for those two reason. I have tons of things to defend my people, still though. But I refrain myself from doing it since it further escallate tension that has no point helping this situation.
We all agree that human societies should find a common ground to make a peaceful situation for them to live together.
To your last response to my comment on respect, I gree that it always works mutually. It might be a good thinking for you if you spent some time researching on unilateralism of American foreign policy. Shouldn’t be very hard. Tons of articles avaialble written by American authors.
My last comment should be made, nevertheless, to even more appreciate maturity that American culture on racial and immigrant issue in compared to any other regions or countries.
You are right that Korean would have gone crazy, but you missed that there are many Koreans taking lessons from your response to this incidence. Many says, that we are being silly too much worring about backlash on Korean community, and any kind of discrimination would be imposed by US gov.
And they are looking back how they have treated south east Asian immigrant labor workers as well. I believe American culture is a single most mature one, but it is because this country is built upon immigrant culture. With that said, I would like to say that I was embarassed when I saw still active racial discrimination between white and black when I arrived this country, even after long history of tension. And I become realizing that this kind of tension might not be terminated, something inherent or limitation of our existence, to be more humble. Not rebutting any chance of anti racial, also appreciating maturity of American culture on that issue. Pointing out that America should work more on your own racism, and Korea is relatively immature with racial issue since the culture has been homogenous for last 5000 years. I know this is not giving them any excuse as well. But want you to know they are working on it and be sure that they will progress on it fast and quick. You might know how fast they are in adjusting changing culture if you spent more than one year back there.
A snake foot!
Can we just stop fighting and look for something that we can make a better future for everybody?
There are lots of children suffering from hunger in Africa and we know of it!
“He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.” Isaiah 2:4
Thank you for patience with my long passage.
April 19th, 2007 at 10:55 am
Dan,
I came back after reading your comment on Stephanie #4, which is hard believe that it was a same person left a respecting note on mine. Intended or not,you obviously worked on the border of being racist with your comment, be careful.
By the way,
I would like to make another comment which I believe more sensitive. (I might have to refrain myself from doing this for this reason).
You said,
“I believe the number of Americans that died for your country was around 35,000.”
Thanking to my comment,
“most of us appreciate the blood the US shed on our land and hope such relationship is hard to break.”
Well it’s totally different story.
We appreciate your blood, but you can’t say for yourself that the blood was shed for Korean.
Do some study how states work.
States never requires their yongmen’s blood for other’s interest. They only work for thier own interst.
Sound cold blooded? But these nonsense are argued by American authors and admitted world wide.
I am resistant to endorse your comment because once your position is granted, a justification is followed my romanticizing any war. Now can Iraquee war considered for the interest of the native people? No. American gov would not spend single dime for those have nothing to do with their own interest. Not only American gov, Korean gov. too. I’m not blaming American or any country. Pointing out it is just reality, no romanticizing.
Still, I would say “thank you” with my heart when I meet families of victiom of Korean war. WITH MY SINCERITY.
Individually, or even collectively their sacrifice sould be more than respected.
No further controversy should not occur I hope.
April 19th, 2007 at 11:16 am
Tha korean, your post was very interesting and see how well educated you are. More than I am for sure. I will check into your suggested reading.
I know koreans adjust quickly. I spent 1988>92 and 1995>97 in Korea also. I had great respect for all koreans , untill 2002>04. If the koreans can stop the anti-american rants and burning the american flags. Forgive crimes of the past instead of having hate fest each and every year. Relations would improve. But I’m sure there will be a riot and american hate fest this year, just as there was last year and the one befor that. We can hope not!
I thank you for you long passage, may we all gain a greater understanding of and for each other.
April 19th, 2007 at 11:44 am
Dan,
Thank you.
I was a bit not sure if I made a inappropriate statement.
But you are sure mature with discussion as well.
I’m not definately sure that there won’t be anti-American demonstrations this year. There are always hatism among any cultures. But At least I can say that they must have learned some lesson from the way Americans reacted to what a sick Korean kid has done.
The relationship between Korea and the US will progress what so ever in peaceful and productive ways.
Thank you. I had learned from your mature attitude with online discussion that tends to crazy always.
Bye.
April 19th, 2007 at 11:55 am
By the way,
I wonder if you guys had a chance to watch a debate of gun banning from CNN.
The pro-gun ownership representative call gun ban as problem not a solution.
He pointed out the location being safe (a class room building where no one considered as armed) chosen by the shooter, instead of going police station.
And he continued subsequently, the shooter was discouraged to commit the killing if everyone was armed.
I was wondering the represntative is really stupid or pretending to be naive or stupid to maintain economic interest that he might enjoy from protecting gun ownership.
I never heard any theory that is more stupid that that.
Old Korean saying:
Stop a three year old child on the street and ask about it!
April 19th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
tha korean, i took carefull notes on your first post. Not on your second. You may well be over-educated.
My math is simple. 35,000 soldiers died so that your country would not become a communist state. They died so that YOU could now do what you are doing. They also died for each other. they served in the american forces that saved your country. What ever reason america had for saving your country, 1.I don’t really care. before I was born. 2. I wish they hadn’t. Based on the riots, flag burning and american hate i felt on my last tour.
If I sound different when I respond to different people, the reason should be clear.
I respond directly to that person. You were thoughtful, so I responded in kind. Stephanie#4 was not thoughtful. She was racist and insulting. I responded with what i believe her problem is and gave my reasons for believeing this. If the truth is ugly, some americans don’t like to talk about it and instead blame others for their problems.
Some americans think they have a free pass to always be the victim.
Others don’t waste there time with that, they get an education and become part of the answer rather than the problem. All races have some stupid ignorant individuals in them. To say that is not racist.
But to make the statment, “Whites are racist—for them, everything boils down to skin color. Sad but true.”
That statment is the definition of a RACIST.
You would have me ignore that insult? I’ve gone out with black women and had a great time. Same for Korean women. I have not gone out with any brown women. Not many around here. My loss.
So think what you will. You have that right. I will think and sometimes say what I will. I also have that right. We have those rights because hunderds of thousands of american service members died in countries far from home. Hundreds of thousands of people around the world live better lives today because those troops died.
I am very greatfull to them. If you are also thats great. If your not than that saddens me. I didn’t know them but I can never forget them. But thats just me.
Sorry I took so long in my thinking.
April 19th, 2007 at 12:09 pm
Tha Korean,
In America, the States with the highest percentage of legal private gun ownership have the lowest crime and murder rates, while those with the most gun control have the highest.
Washington DC has the most stringent gun control laws in the U.S., but the highest murder rate. If you go to some States in the West, such a Nevada, many people walk around wearing holsters with pistols, yet the murder rate is extremely low there.
When criminals know that their victim will not have weapons, they can choose targets at will, but if there is a chance their targets will be armed, many criminals think twice.
This may be counterintuitive to some, but it’s true.
April 19th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
Amy #36-37-38
What kind of area do I live in? Memphis Tn. Try wmctv.com and visit my world. Maby you might stop hateing on me for speaking what my eyes see. But it’s fine with me if you don’t. Nice to know i had a strong effect of you! Maby it will cause you to think just alittle, na-probably not.
As to show myself off? Nothing to show off Amy. just an old man that has been around alot.
I believe guns are outlawed in Canada for the average civilian, right? Maby why shooting are rare. How about murder and assaults and rapes? Are they also rare? If so, maby I should live there. Sounds like a nice place. I’m getting too old for all those dailey gun battles you know.
I’m not so good for sure. Most people who can’t handle the truth if it’s ugly prefure to call people names like racist or the generic term,”loser”.
Well Amy, sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. What are you twelve years old? loser, you can do better than that I HOPE! GO ASK YOUR DAD FOR THE CREDIT CARD AND GO SHOPPING.
April 19th, 2007 at 3:24 pm
Try this:
April 19th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
haha 12 years old? nah~~i’m full grown sexy woman lol
and yeah,, do u even know where the canada is on the map?? lol cuz i heard some ignorant ppl don’t even know where canada is.. i think u r kinda like that, cuz u don’t even know canada is peaceful.
yeah it’s great to live here, too bad i’m moving to nyc.
u say the word don’t hurt u? then y do u react on my writing and u r calling me loser,
“Most people who can’t handle the truth if it’s ugly prefure to call people names like racist or the generic term,”loser”.”
then u r the same huh~? haha u said u r old man but i don c it at all. mayb an internet nerd?
Thank god, i am rich and i can go shopping with my mom’s credit card, huh? i’m am one of the “people of color” as u said. man~ sometimes i wanna c some ppl’s face on the internet. they r soo damn good on the internet huh~?
oh u said i hate what u seeing with ur eyes? ppl see what they wanna see, u know old man~
April 19th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
I see the conversation has degenerated badly.
April 19th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
Dan,
Please do not lose yourself however other people stimulate.
On the war, again, I appreciate the lives sacrificed for what I do now. I trully deeply appreciated.
If they were not there, I wouln’t be here.
Still my need did not count when the US gov. determined engagemnt on the war. CLEARLY. Period.
It is same to any country.
Rather generic my statment was in that sense.
So don’t take it personally please.
There are many things you wish American gov did not go for for your sake. Iraquee war, Vietnamese war..name it. It’s there.
Believe me, whatever your gov choose to devote your tax dollar in present, your children would say, seeing ‘no point’.
But believe me that there is always interesting of US gov. not the people you are impacting. That’s a cold blooded reality.
No one complain US not doing for other country underprevilleged, but most appreciate US engagement for what they are given because of it as I do.
The point I was trying to make is ‘romanticizing’ state action does not help, rather misleading.
So, don’t go there.
And please stop calling Korean anti-US demonstration, a riot.
You don’t arrest people for burning your flag.
Korea gov. arrests people for burning your flag.
No riot.
Legally regulated demonstration is one of those the US soldiers sacrifices gave Korean.
April 19th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
Richardson,
Your theory is exactly reiterating what the other man said.
I say your theory is right only statistically, but misleading the threat that gun itself poses to large extent.
First you pointed out lose association between gun ownership and crime rate. Still need to further scrutiny by itself. For instance what kind of crime was it. Level of education of the majority population. Implicit use of guns..etc.
But even befor those study, moving on to your counterargument with DC, I wonder whether DC still able to ban carrying in arms when people across border as strict as enforcement in airport.
Well airport might be an interesting counterexample.
So all people armed, less criminal.
Why don’t gov distribute self defensing arms to people bording airport instead of ripping them off or see through their body?
Not to mention that criminal rate is affected not by gun control, but other factors should be fairly counted.
Your counter example with States controlling and allowing arms does not stand alone by itself, only dilluting the significant danger that gun poses.
Well, your framework itself found useful.
Let’s then compare rate of massacre between South Korea (a country strickly ban gun ownership) and the US.
Now it must give you a better comparison.
April 19th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
To James Na,
Your justification is just mixing up everything.
Juxtaposing gun with car reminds me of stupid statistics blaming ‘bed’ as most serious causal factor for dead since most people die in bed.
Thinking the difference of gun with other inventions are not very hard.
When you buy a car, what do your car agency say?
“Have a nice drive” or something.
What if you buy a gun.
I don’t know what kind of comment they would make.
“have a safe killing?”
What is the major purpose that gun inherently have.
“Killing”
Don’t ever say it is for defending.
Defending by killing may be more appropriate.
Now that you people really seem prone to statistical research, let me use the same tool.
How many chances do you see that you have to kill others to defend yourself in yourlife?
How many chances do you see guns are used to attack and kill others for criminal purposes?
How many chances do you see large scale massacre as VT would occur when guns are banned?
Simple as that.
Since Americans seem very patriotic,
How many police officer have given their lives for lethal weapons’ attack?
Now let’s agree that guns to everybody less criminal.
What kind of practical policy can be even imagined to implement those kind of plan?
Would you arm yourself?
Would you require some sort of shooting training for everyone enters this country or present them real nice weapon?
Oh, your neighbor jsut have a baby.
Woud you present the baby a really tiny cute gun made, bought from GunRus?
Right to arm is not based on human rights which is universal.
Bottom line.
April 19th, 2007 at 5:28 pm
Self-defense is a fundamental human right, and our Second Amendment recognizes that the right to keep and bear arms ensures that right of self-defense, not just against criminals, but also against a tyrannical state.
April 19th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
James Na
Yeh.
So North Korea’n nuclear armanent is now fairly justified and your second amendment support it, also conflicts with the principle of NPT.
Self-defence is a favorite term that North Korea uses.
April 19th, 2007 at 6:33 pm
If doesn’t take long for someone to compare a firearm to a nuclear weapon, but intermingled with several incompatible issues.
First, don’t confuse the American second amendment with having nuclear weapons for self-defense. Second, the difference of course is that with a firearm you can select your target, while a nuclear weapon is indiscriminate. Third, North Korea has proved itself to be an irresponsible proliferators, so don’t try to weave that into a second amendment discussion (goes to the first point as well). Finally, you don’t seem to really want to discuss this, but to throw out straw men arguments.
Perhaps we should discuss fan death?
April 19th, 2007 at 7:01 pm
I do not feel good being an American of Korean descent today. All the comments in this room is just self justification or some sort of ego-intelligence self admiration. The fact is that 33 people died and many crtically injured. I will shoulder the blame for many of us who are of Korean descent living in America. This tragedy is our fault. Korean-Americans know that it’s our fault. All the money and education will not make life happier. Korean immigrants only care about moving up, presenting a successful fasad. I hate this bullshit mentality in my Korean community. You can’t work all day and leave your immigrant kids to fend for themselves. Money does not equate to happiness. All the degrees from the most reknowned institutions will not bring a tormented soul peace. This kid was not ready for college but his ignorant parents probablly forced this kid to go. I am in now way justifying this monster and his horrid actions. I am so angry and yet I only have a dead man to blame. So I blame my people in the Korean community, who consistantly ignore mental health of thier children. The parents should have know that thier child had major issues. I blame his family who valued money and status instead of the mental well being of thier children. The ignored this developing monster and society suffers. Is the American dream so necessary that you forsake the mental well being of your child. I accept the blame and my mission is to tell every Korean-American the faults of our “American Dream Ideology.” Only dream in life is to be happy and accepted. So all the Korean’s worried about backlash, shut the “F” up! I can only speak in regards to my people. As for future Korean immigrants, don’t immigrate to VA. where there are no peers similar to his situation. Immigrate to Hawaii or Los Angeles where there are many Korean immigrants. Your kid won’t feel so isolated.
April 19th, 2007 at 7:03 pm
The term reductio ad absurdum does not begin to explain the incomprehensible response from “Tha Korean.”
April 19th, 2007 at 7:08 pm
Richardson
The reason I sounded like not wnating to engage the gun discussion is due to the fact that probably I didnt see any solid ground justifying gun possession as a human fundamental right.
If it is a fundamental right, first of all, it should be granted for every people regardless of thier nationality.
Why it is discriminating citizenship then?
How come american civig group not finighting for the right for people out of this country?
How come abuse of the fundamental right still works for most of the world?
The common ground we should start this discussion is gun possession is only justifided under conditional ground, NOT FUNDAMENTAL.
The spirit supporting the Second Amendment even supports North Korean nuclear armament. At least according to thier behavior - engaging six party talk and agreed to give it up- so far, it seemed to be prepared to defend themselve.
I don’t see factual evidence any country irresponsible of using their own weapon as clearly revealed in Japan during the world war. The US is the singe country in human history, failed to refrain itself from using most deadly weapon that human invented, which the inventor themselves even discouraged the use of it.
And the NKorea nuclear armament being a method of self defendence is more justified by the spirit of the US legal spirit that suppors right of self defense. Especially the context of the legal rational was fairly considered.
The private possess of weapons were justified as civil right in a context which people are in demand of public defense.
Also, the history of militia count to that. But concentrate on the fact that just defensless situation goes along with lawless, or at least situation that ultimate authority does not work. Now it reminds you of what?
International relations in which no ultimate authority can enforce security of a country.
They are, in this kind of situation, justified with having thier own best method strong enough to defend them selves in their own measure.
No I will continously wrestle the rationale of the Second Amendment with the principle of NPT.
I do demand somebody explain how they are consistent.
Another suggestion is not calling other nation with moral judgement. That is the point that people of other countries start yellling american arrogant.
April 19th, 2007 at 7:24 pm
I smell a rat. I get the feeling this is going to be more politically correct victim posturing. There is a self-righteous vindictiveness on the left that loves to be offended. And the groups that trip over each other to be most oppressed especially in leftist academia can’t get enough of this massochistic compulsion. Ofcourse I can’t speak for everyone in America in this aftermath from this latest school shooting, however I am not seeing ANY prejudice against Asians after the Virginia shooting (despite the media declaring repeatedly that I should)-sorry to defeat leftist machinations here.
America is probably the most tolerant place on earth-to the point of enacting politically correct codes that are eroding our freedoms, and especially our cherished freedom of speech. Anyone who doubts this might want to suspend their US citizenship and see what true intolerance and extreme poverty are actually like the world over. Eldridge Cleaver experienced a similar humbling back in the 1970s.
April 19th, 2007 at 8:44 pm
Tha Korean,
It is too bad you don’t understand this. Regardless, the U.S. has recognized the right to defend oneself with a firearm as an inalienable right. You don’t have to agree with that or understand it, yet it is.
No, not exactly true. I’m not going to go into it, but you should or search on the Federalist Papers. Just because “militia” is mentioned, it does not mean only public defense, and is actually much deeper than that. Again, you don’t have to agree.
I hope you’re setting up a straw man on purpose, but recognize that you might not be; on one hand you ask why isn’t this right in the second amendment universal (not dependent upon citizenship), but later you speak of American being perceived of as arrogant. Think about that.
Also, I do not accept any argument that attempts to make North Korea the moral equal of the U.S. – it is not. I completely reject any attempt at moral equivalence you may try to employ. North Korea threatens the security of the entire region, and murders millions of it’s own people. Just about any nation is morally superior to North Korea, and the U.S. is vastly so.
April 19th, 2007 at 11:27 pm
“Militia” in the days of the Founding Fathers referred to all citizens who could vote (white adult males only at the time).
Indeed, there were two kinds of militias, the “unorganized militia” (the entire enfranchised citizenry) and the “organized militia” (those who trained as a body for military service at the direction of the community).
Here is a primer on the 2nd Amendment. Read it, then comment.
April 20th, 2007 at 12:40 am
Franesca; love that name, Anyway I just wanted to say that I agree completely with your post. I took a trip to the Philippines back in 1991, june. I made a friend and she took me around to places americans don’t see much. we took lunch at her friends house. They gave me the fork. only had one and they gave it to me. A bowl of steamed rice never tasted so good.
Maby why I have little time to hear american women complain. I’ve seen much worse coditions but with seemingly happer lives.
Tha Korean; I think i understand you some and I thank you for the advice.
I’ve been gone all afternoon. buying ammo for the range tomorrow. Some of us just enjoy watching the can explode when we hit it. Can’t have that kind of fun with a nuke. Hope it doesn’t rain, I washed my car today also. Check back in tomorrow afternoon.
April 20th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
Ted Nugent on “gun free zones”:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/19/commentary.nugent/index.html
April 20th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
South Koreans should get over the Ohno and 2 schoolgirls. However, I don’t blame them for the Cho attacks. Only idiots or maybe kids (who are not old enough to make rational decisions) would spit on South Koreans. There are no South Korean flag burnings or destruction of South Korean products.
I don’t blame them for Cho. I am only disappointed at thier hateful anti-American attiude for the last 6 or 7 years.
I’ll admit Bush isn’t the greatest president and America hasn’t had the best Korean policies. However, many South Koreans have a tendency to judge nations and not individuals.
Cho was mentally ill and should not have been allowed to get a gun. That was the real problem. He had a clear mental health record that was ignored by the police. Otherwise, nobody is to blame. Cho is like thousands of other troubled kids. I just hope they don’t snap.
April 20th, 2007 at 4:10 pm
Quote: “……….@ Tha Korean
First I want to let you know that I had no problem with your english. I think it’s damn good. I can not write more than a couple of words in your language, and I still have some trouble with mine.
That being said, I feel I must respond to your post.
You asked that, “stop labling korean as horrifying riots or something you have seen from LA in the past, and think about it.” also somethink about one thousand at a time can not go crazy.
Also, “just to say that korean does not hate american because they are american. Ask your friend for that.”
My response is that I don’t have to ask anyone. I was in korea the last time in Jan of 2002 thru Jan of 2004. I SAW IT! Thousands of people, burning the American flag. I saw the looks of hate on the subway for my white skin. Was locked in my camp because of the threats of violence directed at americans. I saw the signs that stated, “Americans not welcome”.
You said the marches were really anti-humanistic or anti-irrational.
Well, it was the american flag they were burning. It was I that could not travel the subway because of threats to AMERICANS.
This is not make believe. I was there in uijongbu and seoul. It was not something from LA, or the past.
Thanks for the memories of a peaceful and friendly Korea, that I did not receive!
What you don’t know is that few GIs WANT to be sent to Korea. Few return from korea ever wanting to return. If I were still a soldier, I would rather return to Iraq than Korea. At least it is real there.
But I thank you for saying, “most of us appreciate the blood the US shed on our land and hope such relationship is hard to break.”
I believe the number of Americans that died for your country was around 35,000. Not Sure. About the same number of Americans that are now taken from there familys (most not all,[Officers]) and serve in your country today. You might think of each one as representing an american that died there. Maby. If it is appreciated.
As you said, “PEOPLE REACT WHEN THEY FEEL THEY ARE NOT WELL RESPECTED.”
It goes both ways you know…………” END QUOTE
———————————————————
Anonymous American -
Koreans tend to say the truth. Many Americans will not because of PC. During the 1800’s and early 1900’s white Americans had no problem telling African Americans the truth. When Afro-Americans did bad things they had to pay. However, thier were many false accusations of course.
This had good and bad effects. The good effect was that it kept Afro-Americans humble by punishing bad blacks. The bad effect was that many “good” black people had to endure hate and prejudice.
A little hate is good because it is a counterbalance to arrogance. People who are not reminded of thier own faults will always see themselves as right (like a spoiled child).
In the 1800’s and early 1900’s white Americans were arrogant and needed to be reminded of thier faults.
These days everybody is arrogant. Our law enforement system is soft and everyone is a victim. Cho’s little speech pretty much summed up the “liberal guilt” thing. “I am not responsible for my actions. YOU drove me to DO THIS!!
Has anyone seen the first Planet of the Apes (1968)? The lesson from that movie is that people need a slap in the face occasionally. Taylor (The American guy) got a big slap at the end.
Yes, Koreans got thier hangups but thier only human I guess.
A good slap will help the human race.
April 22nd, 2007 at 4:29 pm
My heart truly goes out for the victims, those innocent lives of Virgina Tech Massacre. However, I’ve thought about the shooter and why he would do such a thing. I know he had mental problems and depression, but imagine how he would have felt. He was born with those mental problems, very hard for him to make friends. My first thought was, i mean there are many loners we feel bad for, right? But his problem was intense. His parents were busy with their work, he didnt have anyone. Did you know that his dad commited suicide afterwards and his mom is in hospital, failing to commit a suicide? I’m not disagreeing with any of you that the blame’s on him, but I just feel bad what he had been going through.
I’m guessing that there’ll be negative attitudes toward my comment, and i’m truly sorry if I offend anyone.
April 22nd, 2007 at 4:56 pm
May I say to the Korean people not to take it hard what one crazed guy did. It is not your fault. Don’t take it hard, please. He did it on his own only. Thanks.
April 23rd, 2007 at 1:36 am
In my experience, Koreans are no more honest or deceitful than Americans or any other group of people I’ve run into. People are pretty much the same everywhere (of course, there are always idiosyncratic cultural developments based on historical/circumstantial “accidents”).
I know there are characters on the blogosphere who lived in Korea a few years and launch into authoritative, self-important lectures about why culturally Koreans are more (or less) deceitful.
I often find that such talk says more about the people who expound thusly than the objects of their “theories.”
April 23rd, 2007 at 2:30 am
it is a clear fact that if things were reversed and an american had killed 32 koreans in seoul - we (americans) would be on the first boat out of here if we were not killed in the streets. some may not believe me but i have lived here for 10 yrs and seen their crazed antics during the 2 schoolgirl deaths (accident) and the Ohno debacle (an incident somewhat common in that SPORT). the schoolgirl mess was an accident which morphed into cold-blooded murder by the hundreds of thousands that swamped the streets. these people, yes, can be some of the warmest people in the world but also some of the most volatile. don’t ask me how i have survived the past 10 yrs here except i have been blessed with amazing friends, etc.. but i am often disappointed with the mass of koreans and their love/hate relationship with america. i sometimes dearly wish we had never fought the korean war for them and had never even set foot in this country…
[Edited; non-specific anti-Korean ranting not welcomed here.]
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:02 am
wake up and smell the kimchi;
You sumed-up my nine years with USFK very well.
I knew some fine individuals there.
But as a mass group, when the hate for American People hits them, It is something to behold.
I also find myself wishing we had never come to their aid, but we did. Now I hope we will soon wake up and pull out 90% of our ground forces, as they are both hated and not needed. Its been 57 or so years. If they can’t defend their country by now, they never will be able.
I tire of the constant chant of “americans are evil”. Leave Korea to whatever fate it will have.
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:13 am
wake up and smell the kimchi
Not again,
As some one said earlier, that crazy mass is prevalent for any ethnic group.
Name it, I’ll find that out of your own culture.
It’s a waste of time coloring one culture with only one aspect.
It’s not productive in building a peaceful relationship, which everybody hope to build regardless of nationlities.
Dan//
That is the reason I oppose labling NK as morally retarded, which I strongly believe so.
That is the border you cannot across when you are engaging a political debate.
The reason, I think I’m repeating this, is that once you start labling one nation with moral term, sying ‘NK stupid, NK irrisposible’, it just literally stops talking, which leads to what? War!!!
And you did not respond my demand explaining how the principle of Second Amendmend, justifying private armament as a defence method, is in consistent with NPT, which discourages proliferation of nuclear weapons.
Let me tell you something.
I’m not sure whether Americans are truly arrogant.
But I guess you are arrogant since you look down on other culture, thinking your culture is superior to them.
Also I found no evidence Americans are irresponsible.
But I guess you may be irresponsible since you keep avoiding facing the essential problem of VT incidence, which is allowing guns to society.
….
Now how do you feel about me?
Did you find my comment rational or respectful?
You have agreed that ‘respecting’ works only mutually.
Do you still want to respond to my comment with your full respect?
The way you feel now might be the way people NK would feel when people like you assail them with a moral term.
If you still would like to continue gun debate, I would like to ask another question (although you avoided answering my previous question)
Do you think if it is possible for us to stop gun massacre, like Culumbine, VT even if American society keep allowing guns to private?
My last comment on your previous comment on me.
You say that I don’t have to agree.
I took it that you admit that you are not able to convince me
Like saying “leave me alone. this is none of your business”
But it is a big deal of my business, and a big deal of my family’s business, since we live in this country.
Now it is a big deal of everybody enter this country as a foreinger.
Not very hard to see most of the victims of VT were international students who were not allowed to defence themselves.
Your great American law, saying it does not discriminate race, nationality, does discriminate them in this term.
And bullet does not discriminate, you know that.
You said that more weapons, less violence.
Based on that theory, that puts foreigners life at risk.
How do you solve this dillema?
If this is a straw man to you, I don’t know what to say..
April 23rd, 2007 at 2:27 pm
I’ve found this to be the case in many countries, including in Western Europe.
A friend was USAF for a long time and was stationed in W. Europe, Japan and Korea in the 70s and 80s, and he found anti-Americanism the most intense in… the United States, the only place where people spat on him for being an American military officer.
He found his stay in Korea, in contrast, pleasant.
We should all remember that we all possess relatively narrow geogrphical and temporal horizons. Our own experiences do not necessarily reflect the entirety of reality.
April 23rd, 2007 at 2:39 pm
wake up and smell the kimchi wrote:
“don’t ask me how i have survived the past 10 yrs here except i have been blessed with amazing friends, etc.. “
Having spent almost ten years in Korea, I would describe you in Konglish as “over.” Yes, the Korean media does a fine job feeding nationalism and jingoism, and yes, white and black people do get harassed and occasionally attacked during tense periods like right after the LA riots, the opening of the rice market, the 1995 subway brawl, and the tank accident. During the decade I spent in Korea, I experienced about a dozen incidents of verbal and physical harassment. That averages out to about one per year, hardly an impediment to living a happy life, and my life in Korea was very happy.
There are bigots everywhere who will use any excuse to vent their hatred on those who are different. Let your unpleasant experiences arouse sympathy for what people of color and of non-Christian faiths have long experienced in the West.
April 23rd, 2007 at 2:45 pm
Tha Korean wrote:
“Not very hard to see most of the victims of VT were international students who were not allowed to defence themselves.”
Check again. Many of the victims were not white, but that does not mean they were “international students.” In fact, only five of the 32 victims were foreign nationals. The remainder were native born or naturalized citizens.
Moreover, I believe all students, regardless of nationality, are not permitted to carry guns on campus.
April 23rd, 2007 at 3:08 pm
In regard to the second amendment vs. the NPT; read up on indiscriminate weapons and you will see why the same principle is not compatible with the individual self defense in the second amendment. You’re attempting to join two dissimilar items into a theme, and it will not work.
Not sure who you’re addressing, but I’ll answer. Perhaps you don’t understand what a straw man is; but you’re doing it again with your accusations of arrogance.
Allowing firearms in society is not the “essential problem” - that would be a mentally unstable person. Again, you’re addressing the issue with emotion rather than logic. Another large part of the problem is that under federal law he should have been banned from his gun purchases, but VA law does (did?) not fully comply with federal requirements. But the “essential problem” remains the individual, not a piece of metal.
In 2002 a gunman on another Virginia campus was apprehended by to students who had their own firearms (with permits to carry them). Three people died. Guns, like other tools, can be used for good or bad.
So I guess you are incapable of looking at the facts and coming to a logical conclusion based on reality.
Not true; you just didn’t like the answer. Not the same thing.
It is possible to reduce such instances, but probably not possible to prevent them entirely. That is the balance that must be struck between individual freedoms and society.
It is true that I do not think I can – or anyone – can convince you in this argument. You have shown a propensity to disregard facts in favor of emotion, and as noted by another, a fondness for reductio ad absurdum.
But it is untrue that how I responded means, “this is none of your business.” It just means that a) I recognize that it’s a lost cause, and, as I said, b) it really doesn’t matter to me if you agree or not; you obviously don’t have many facts in regard to gun control issues and I disregard emotion based options in such matters. You can like that or not, I don’t care.
If you are a permanent legal resident or a citizen, then yes, it’s your business. If you’re not, then it is so to a much lesser degree.
You cannot tell from pictures if those students are international or not. For all you know they are citizens to the third generation. Also, none of the students, green card holders/citizens/or otherwise, were permitted to have a firearm on campus.
This is the sort of superficial understanding you bring to the entire issue; you don’t have even this basic level of facts, yet you want to be taken seriously?
Another example of ignoring data; I don’t say that States with more liberalized carry laws have lower violent crime and murder rates, the data does.
The solution to this delima? If you want to live in the U.S., become a permanent resident or citizen, make sure you do not have a criminal record, and get a permit to carry if you are otherwise eligible. The next best solution would be to live in a State the does have a higher concentration of such carriers if you are concerned about your safety, and avoid like the plague any States or cities that have strict gun control laws (NY, DC), as you will be much less safe there.
You’ll need to read the definition of “straw man” arguments before you respond again.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:38 pm
Richardson;
You are good! I am impressed.
I think most of that emotional overflow was aimed at me from “tha Korean”.
I speak from the gut, which means just my experience. You are far better armed than I.
I do not look down on Korea or her People, however it may seem, I am sure I never stated anything along the lines that all of ANY group of people are good or bad, 100%.
My experience was of my last tour in Korea. Not my first tour in Korea. Nor was it about my tours in Germany, Bosnia, Honduras, or other countries I’ve visited, toured, vacationed, or stopped at. It was about Korea. I am aware that Americans are hated, disliked and sometimes even liked in all countries.
I am also aware that Americans and America have many problems, and are not the (Best People) in the world. I know there is no such thing as a, (Best People), in this world. I can find some sh–bags right around the corner here, and I can find some in AnJong-ri, UiJong-bu, and everwhere else.
Didn’t want you to take all the heat for me. I knew something wasn’t right.
I’m still Proud to be American. Nothing wrong with that. It doesn’t mean “Tha Korean” should be any less proud of being Korean.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:46 pm
That’s true, but we Americans do have the best country in the world. We are free (although increasingly less so).
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:08 pm
I had in insight back in 1990 or so. My first tour, (4 years, because I really enjoyed the place) in korea.
Anyway, I walked out the gate past a little eating place and saw a fellow soldier there, drinking Soju. A few soju, which tends to bring out the truth in a person.
He was 100% korean but adopted by whites @ age six. He was very interested in his “mother country”. At the end of the tour, he was not very happy with korean people. This is note worthy because at that little restaurant he looked at me after too many soju, and this (raised in america) American Soldier of Korea, informed me that, “all americans are inbred Mutts”. I remember telling him that, for the most part, he was correct. But that it didn’t matter, as america was a very rich and powerful country, that he was american, and if a bunch of “inbred mutts” were good enough to be american, why did he feel so bad about it?
I ran into him in Bosnia in 1998. He had married a white women. I guess he worked it out for himself. He seemed very happy in 1998. Big change from 1991 when the Koreans called him a Banana, and the Gi’s thought he was a KATUSA, untill they saw his rank, E4.
I won’t forget that for many years. It was part of my education of korea, that I may have missed without him.
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:34 pm
QUOTE: In my experience, Koreans are no more honest or deceitful than Americans or any other group of people I’ve run into. People are pretty much the same everywhere (of course, there are always idiosyncratic cultural developments based on historical/circumstantial “accidents”).
I know there are characters on the blogosphere who lived in Korea a few years and launch into authoritative, self-important lectures about why culturally Koreans are more (or less) deceitful.
I often find that such talk says more about the people who expound thusly than the objects of their “theories.”
END QUOTE
James Na,
People are the same everywhere. I just think people should be honest. For example, imagine racist white guys using the n word while cheering on a black football player. Despite the PC culture how do regular people really feel about others?
It’s not a self-important lecture. It’s just reflections on everyday events. Some Koreans are obssessed with America (good or bad) so why can’t Americans be obsessed with Korea?
April 24th, 2007 at 12:25 am
Question Marks…
“This didn’t have to happen”, Cho Seung-Hui said, after brutally murdering thirty-two people at Virginia Tech University.
And this terrible tragedy of sons, daughters, mothers and fathers didn’t have to happen, if we’d only listened.
But we never listen.
We never listen to those that are different from us- the outcasts, the lonely, the homeless, the ones that are unspoken for. We don’t try to understand. We shun them and put them out of our minds because of our fear that we will become like them.
And these people become more and more lonely and alienated in their isolation.
Words like “creep”, “deranged misfit” and “psycho” devalue this killer’s humanity so we don’t have to face how similar he is to us. Cries of “how could he have been stopped” are uttered by media quick to sensationalize and gain market share, when the words “how could he have been listened to” are never considered.
Because we don’t want to listen.
We don’t want to hear about loneliness and alienation when we’re all so busy with our lives, making money and making friends. And the unpopular, the ones that don’t fit in, the lonely ones are ignored or made fun of because we don’t care to understand anything about them.
As a boy, Cho Seung-Hui “was picked on, pushed around and laughed at over his shyness” (Associated Press). When he started college, according to the Guardian, “his mother took his dormitory mates to one side to explain about her son’s unusual character and implored them to help.”
And he clearly needed help, devaluing himself so much that he called himself “Question Mark”.
There are more “Question Marks” out there. There are millions of them. And if we don’t listen to them, they will follow the same path again and again, because people are not connecting. We are becoming more and more disconnected from each other, creating more and more “Question Marks” every day.
Most “Question Marks” don’t become murderers. Some just kill themselves. Most harm no one and live just as we do, needing antidepressants to appear what we call “normal”. They may be someone you know, someone you love.
This “Question Mark” was once a little boy, who cried, and smiled and loved, He wanted to fit in just like you and I. But that desire to fit in transformed itself into anger towards a society that shunned and ignored him.
How many more times will we shun and ignore the one that doesn’t fit in, the one in the corner, the one that’s different? When all we have to do is listen, before it’s too late.
But we won’t.
Thirty-two human beings who did not know Cho Seung-Hui were murdered.
They were sons, daughters, fathers and mothers, with dreams of futures that will never come and children that will never be born. The thirty-two leave behind people that love them. People that are now scarred for life by this horrible day of death.
To most of us that have not been directly involved, this tragedy will become a memory and fade like all the others that came before.
And the “Question Marks” will appear with more frequency, again and again, because we don’t listen.
We never do.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:52 am
Anon American, you should get out more. Lets try this, after we say “racist white guys”, lets add racist black guys, or pick any color you want. As a white guy, I can tell you, my white brothers are not the only color or sex that racist come in. Lets be Honest.
Also, I missed the event where a bunch of “racist white guys using the n word while cheering on a black football player.” Was this event as popular as the hate-americas {black & white & yellow & brown} protests that happen in and around Seoul yearly? It’s a college students hobby.
I suppose you would tell me this happens (everywhere). Please, allow me to inform you that, you are a racist yourself. Also I would like to say, Good for You. I, unlike some, like to know what others think. Makes it easier to understand them. “It’s just reflections on everyday events.”
Some koreans are obsessed with america ( bad americans only ). You seem to be obsessed with “racist white guys”. Good. Glad to help yet another victim. I wish to say more, but it would be a waste of time. Enjoy your victimhood.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:12 am
James Na, I agree with BOTH sentences. If there is a better Country, I don’t know about it. The oldest government belonging to the youngest Country. Not bad!
November 26th, 2007 at 9:07 am
quote “Anon American, you should get out more. Lets try this, after we say “racist white guys”, lets add racist black guys, or pick any color you want. As a white guy, I can tell you, my white brothers are not the only color or sex that racist come in. Lets be Honest.”
I know that. Everybody is racist.
quote: “Also, I missed the event where a bunch of “racist white guys using the n word while cheering on a black football player.”
I witnissed this in my hometown once. It was at someone’s house during a game. Of course, I could be wrong but I’m sure that’s not the only house like that. I usually don’t go there but I did once and witnessed that.
Your PC haters will say it’s free speech; Others will say it’s rednecks. Generally racist people should be ignored but sometimes it goes over the line.
quote “Was this event as popular as the hate-americas {black & white & yellow & brown} protests that happen in and around Seoul yearly? It’s a college students hobby.”
It’s a democracy; People can say what they want.
quote ”
I suppose you would tell me this happens (everywhere). Please, allow me to inform you that, you are a racist yourself. Also I would like to say, Good for You. I, unlike some, like to know what others think. Makes it easier to understand them. “It’s just reflections on everyday events.”
I’m not racist or at least or try not to be racist. I objected to the n word being used at the party. I figure it’s not cool to cheer a team and insult a player like that. If you don’t like blacks then don’t watch sports.
quote: “Some koreans are obsessed with america ( bad americans only ).
I know that.
quote “You seem to be obsessed with “racist white guys”. Good. Glad to help yet another victim. I wish to say more, but it would be a waste of time. Enjoy your victimhood.”
I wish to understand certain people because I can’t understand thier thinking. Why are some people racist and / or mean?
quote”But as a mass group, when the hate for American People hits them, It is something to behold.
”
Most Koreans DONT hate Americans. They hate the American government. Remember, nobody forces Koreans to like McDonalds or KFC.
November 26th, 2007 at 9:32 am
quote”Koreans tend to say the truth. ”
They’re just looking for a reaction.
quote” Koreans tend to say the truth. Many Americans will not because of PC. During the 1800’s and early 1900’s white Americans had no problem telling African Americans the truth. When Afro-Americans did bad things they had to pay. However, thier were many false accusations of course.
This had good and bad effects. The good effect was that it kept Afro-Americans humble by punishing bad blacks. The bad effect was that many “good” black people had to endure hate and prejudice.
A little hate is good because it is a counterbalance to arrogance. People who are not reminded of thier own faults will always see themselves as right (like a spoiled child).
In the 1800’s and early 1900’s white Americans were arrogant and needed to be reminded of thier faults.
These days everybody is arrogant. Our law enforement system is soft and everyone is a victim. Cho’s little speech pretty much summed up the “liberal guilt” thing. “I am not responsible for my actions. YOU drove me to DO THIS!!
Has anyone seen the first Planet of the Apes (1968)? The lesson from that movie is that people need a slap in the face occasionally. Taylor (The American guy) got a big slap at the end.
Yes, Koreans got thier hangups but thier only human I guess.
A good slap will help the human race.
”
You’d only see real hate right after the 2 shoolgirl shootings.
After that - They’re just trying to get a reaction.