Watching Seoul’s Slow Self-Decapitation
by Richardson ~ August 3rd, 2006. Filed under: Anti-Americanism, Korean Politics, U.S. Military, U.S.-Korea Relations.Yesterday 13 former ROK Defense Ministers, constituting 40 years of experience, unanimously called for the Roh administration to reconsider its proposal to take over wartime command of military forces on the peninsula in the event of a war on the grounds that, “[South] Korea does not have the military intelligence power to exercise operational control on its own and needs U.S. support.” There was also, perhaps, a veiled threat of military intervention.
Today, despite the warnings, Defense Minister Yoon Kwang-ung stated that Seoul would press forward with plans to take the command by 2012, saying that, “The two sides have agreed that U.S. forces’ continued presence in South Korea and an overwhelming troop and weapons deployment in the event of an emergency are a prerequisite to their talks on the wartime command transfer.” As some note, this position of demonstrating “independence” by taking wartime operational control looks absurd when the ROK still plans on the U.S. to come to the rescue. Meanwhile, in Washington, the readiness of the U.S. military has been called into question.
The Sunshine Policy has helped sustain the Kim Jong-il regime, which likely is cooperating with Iran on missile issues, while North Korean propaganda is allowed to run rampant in South Korea and the administration is viewed as incompetent and lacking authority.
The effect has been predictable, and indeed it appears that it is exactly what the Roh administration was shooting for. Although the press appears to have become rather more alarmed than usual at the state of affairs, it may be too late. Which would be unfortunate for all.
As painful as it has been to watch the monumental stupidity of the Roh administration perpetuating these acts, that amount to self-mutilation, and the effect on the U.S.-ROK alliance, it would be even greater folly for the U.S. to reduce its presence on the Korean Peninsula to the point where its long-standing influence would be eroded.
August 4th, 2006 at 3:19 pm
The ROK/US alliance is already eroded and the stupidity of the Roh administration is far too painfull for this old vet to watch. I understand what will happen if the USA pulls out. It is unfortunate that the koreans do not. But if we leave, it must be with no promise to return when trouble comes, as it surely will. Sadly I say, let this generation learn what their Grandparents learned. I do type that with sadness! Who said this, \”those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it\”? I don\’t recall.
August 4th, 2006 at 3:49 pm
Thank Dan for the service that you have provided and freedom, including freedom of speech.
But wow!! Your position seems to be very bitter, even sadistic.
‘But if we leave, it must be with no promise to return when trouble comes, as it surely will. Sadly I say, let this generation learn what their Grandparents learned.’
I guess it doesn’t bother you to watch innocent people suffer emotionally and physically, even if you could do something.
Wasn’t there some sort of honor code in the military about helping people in need? Or is that contract over, yet you still get paid taxpayer $?
August 4th, 2006 at 5:13 pm
James, my feeling IS one of bitterness. I watched too many good men and some women go through too much! For a people that not only will not say THANKS, but condem the very people that would put their life on the line. FOR THEM! Remember that sub of the east coast in 97 or was it 98? SK called up their reserves, and only about 60% reported. I loved riding the subway in korea! 2002 the subways were put off limits. Because of the anti-american feeling. I saw it when I go on the last time. I still remember the looks on the faces.
\”I guess it doesn\’t bother you to watch innocent people suffer emotionally and physically, even if you could do something.\”
What do you think i was doing in Iraq in 2004. WATCHING?
What do you think i was doing in Bosnia in 98-99. WATCHING?
I was in addition to normal duties a combat-life saver.
I help when I could and when I can.
I kept the code and keep it still. But korea is a fair weather friend now. It blams us for their troubles.
I will hold out my hand to help you James, but i hope you wouldn\’t spit in my face afterward, or burn my house down, or kidnap my friends. Would you?
Not that it is any of your business, but I get $1100. per month. I pay taxes on it also. Can you live on that alone? I earned every penny! You don\’t sound like you wore a Uniform. Not everyone can. Not everyone should. But for those that do—they should be used to help those that want help. Not moved about and thrown into the meat grinder because NOW THEY WANT US AGAIN! If USFK is done for, it is at South Korea\’s REQUEST. Don\’t throw those boys back into it because they changed their minds when it gets bloody. THAT James, is sadistic.
I gave Korea many years and have made friends with many. I hope they get out. They can stay with me. I have room.
Over thirty five thousand Americans gave their lives, their futures.
The young lady that worked on base at the computer center told me in 2002 that Most Koreans do not want us. Fine, I can take a hint. Oh, she was being paid by the USA. More sad than bitter James. Korea was a great tour for me in the 80s and 90s. 2002, 2002. A very bad year. From what I read here and other blogs, only a big change in 07 can save the day.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:31 pm
The Phone center, and computer rooms on base are turned off in Iraq, when someone dies. So no news can get to the family before the army can tell them. They were turned off often, I didn\’t keep track of how often. It would have seemed—sadistic, some how. There were these two guys from a unit out of new york. Great guys! I worked force protection 1800 - 0600. They came in for their shift one time and told me their unit was the reason the como was out that day. Eight guy, burned alive. One of them old me about them and said the Medic on board was a di-k head. He looked down and said, \”It\’s a shame that I remember him that way\”.
And to all those about to ask, Yes I think we should get out of Iraq. I have only been thinking that for a couple of days. I\’m sad about that too, but you can go so far. There is a time to stop.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:45 pm
dan,
i obviously cannot understand your pain.
you’re right. i haven’t worn a uniform.
but i would like to point out like others in this site have.
the ones that spit you in the face after you’ve helped them indirectly is a small minority in SK.
you know, the ones that burn the US flag.
don’t take it out on a whole nation of innocent civilians that do support the US. there are great people there.
if that’s your premise why koreans should all burn to death if KJI happens to throw some chemical bombs into SK, then why did you serve in the military?
i’m sure the % of those US citizens that don’t support the war nor the soldiers that are there are in Iraq right now is more than the % of korean ’spit in your facers’.
August 4th, 2006 at 6:32 pm
James
My feeling is that if KJL comes, it will be better for the SK people if the usa is Not there. After the ROK Special Forces and Rangers are wiped out, the regular army will soon fall apart. The people have no weapons. It would be over in a month, IF the usa is not involved.
If the usa is involved there will be great suffering. Mostly Seoul and areas of MSR-1 to the north, Ujong bu area.
If we win, it will be the USAs fault for all the suffering.
Answer; I hoped to make a differance. Same reason you do this blog. Also, I wanted to see what was out there, perhaps i would learn something that i did not yet know. Some of my soldiers in the 90\’s told me I should write a book. I smiled, and thought, how do I put this in a book and who would want to read it.
I know there are great people there james. I know some of them and they are welcome in my home. But for the other 75%. They can burn my flag, invade the base, burn the gate and call be Ka soky ah, (i know it is spelled wrong) and post teenage girls at the gate to tell me shi poli ma. Then tell be to get out of their country because I am preventing reunion with their northen brothers and sisters. A good guest knows when to leave.
Arms race after we leave. Perhaps. Japan still likes us, mostly.
Your winning me James, we could have the 7th Fleet near the Philippines, Thiland, ready to help. But I stll say it is time for the guest to go home. No more Base camps! This is a Korean matter, we have been told to leave. No more 365 days away from the wife and kids. If you need us, we will be off shore in a couple of days.
August 4th, 2006 at 6:58 pm
Dan,
I think “james” and “James Na” are two different people–though I could be wrong.
Otherwise, I agree with most of the things “james” wrote in his last post on this thread.
August 4th, 2006 at 7:13 pm
Mr Choe is correct.
Two different peeps.
I obviously don’t concur. But hey, that’s freedom.
Something that I do believe that everyone here wishes NK to have.
And even though I don’t agree, I do thank you for serving and giving me the ability to disagree with you.
August 4th, 2006 at 7:15 pm
Choe is correct - ‘james’ is a regular commenter while ‘James J. Na’ is a co-owner of this blog and always signs his full name (to avoid confusion with a common given name, no doubt).
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On USFK drawing down/pulling out; I don’t see how any soldier could approve of that once made aware of the potential consequences down the road. An arms race would almost be guaranteed to ensue, which could not help but to destabilize East Asia. The extend of the destabilization – but not that it would occur – is the question. Would a conflict (i.e., war) occur? Who knows, but USFK vastly improves the potential for such an outcome. One may rant that they would not want to see the U.S. involved in another Asian conflict, but we all know that the U.S. has too many financial interests in the region to not be involved; and that would mean the lives of U.S. service members, that likely for a situation that likely could have been prevented in the first place with the stabilizing presence of USFK in South Korea. The cost analysis I do says stay in Korea.
August 4th, 2006 at 7:29 pm
Let me get this correct in my mind. When you say you disagree with me, it means that N & S Korea are an American issue. That the US Bases should stay in place. That the present situation should be maintained. Is this correct?
August 4th, 2006 at 7:40 pm
Yes, USFK should stay in the ROK in numbers/capability at least at the current level. Please read the ‘arms control’ post linked to in the comment above for the full explanation.
August 4th, 2006 at 8:00 pm
I understand your train of thought and read the arms race blog. The base I still feel should go. If they are reduced in numbers only, they will be combat ineffective and serve in name only. But I DO see your side. Thanks to all for an informative discussion. The ICBM thing was a 50/50 at best. KJL could not lose face. He could do it, said he would do, and had no way out but to do it. Thanks again Guys!
August 5th, 2006 at 9:13 am
“But if we leave, it must be with no promise to return when trouble comes”
Here Here!!!
Stay or go. No Truman.
I prefer “go”, and I do not do so for emotional reasons. I believe my pragmaticism outwieghs any id centered reactions to SK anti-Americanism or Roh stupidity I have.
It would pain me greatly to see South Korea invaded again by North Korea, but that does not have to happen.
It would pain me just as much or more to see American soldiers thrown into a 2nd Korean War if the North begins to collapse and decides to go for broke by invading or lashing at the South and the US assets there.
On the pragmatic side, I know South Korea has the strength to build up its forces to defend itself without the US - at least without US ground troops or air assets in country. SK has the ability to handle a US withdrawal without it leading inevitably to war.
The fact South Korean society is reluctant to put its resources into such an effort does zero to influence me the US should get out.
And I’ll cut this short, because I’ve said it before here, covering issues like the potential (stronger) arms race and US influence in the region and in Korea and other things.
I simply believe the complex equation of risks vs benefits has come to the point that the risks of staying in Korea (both in relation to the NK threat and the need for assets elsewhere and for future contingencies) far outweigh the benefits of staying there (for American society).
August 5th, 2006 at 9:16 am
“The fact South Korean society is reluctant to put its resources into such an effort does zero to influence me the US should NOT get out.”
August 5th, 2006 at 11:34 am
You said it much better than I could. I\’m not sure but after sleeping on it and reading it this morning, I believe I was out-flanked and indirectly attacked. It was still a good exchange.
August 5th, 2006 at 11:14 pm
The problem is that policy people and area specialist people and some others will balk just getting closed to the idea that one strong reason to leave Korea is “hurt feeling” or an emotional response to Korea’s anti-Americanism.
I’ve seen this on House committee hearings where one rep was talking about some of the pragmatic stuff and then threw in some about how he felt watching the late 2002 orgy of hate, and the next rep started by taking exception to the others saying, as he characterized it, something like, “If you don’t like me and do what I say, and I’m going to pack up and leave” as a highly selfish, and self-centered, and arrogant way to think .
By pointing to the emotional response of the one rep to the attitude in Korea, the other could ignore and negate the pragmatic reasons for withdrawl.
He made it sound like the whole other side, including in effect some of the experts who gave their opinion without reference to any emotional reaction to anti-US activity, by making them all seem like a bunch of American nationalistic cry babies.
August 7th, 2006 at 8:14 pm
If the S Koreans think they still need US assistance, you wouldn’t be able to tell by their actions. The S Koreans overwhelmingly create the appearance that they are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves and are tired of US influence and supprt. Look at all the anti-American demonstrations/rallies/FESTIVALS scheduled in and around Korea this month. It’s time they pony up and actually pay to defend themselves out of their own pockets. Of course, when they realize the cost and their “miracle economy” starts to crumble, it will be too late. Additionally, this will give them no one to blame but themselves for their situation…although I’m sure they would still find a way to blame the U.S.
August 7th, 2006 at 8:31 pm
No, not all;
http://www.dprkstudies.org/images/anti-NK-protest/
August 8th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
Is it really necessary to have US troops here? Why not the promise of air and naval support and bombardment of the North if they attack? Seems that the soldiers are sitting ducks. Do they really serve a useful purpose here, other than for appearance sake? Wouldnt the promise of military support (other than ground support) keep a lid on an arms race?
August 8th, 2006 at 1:27 pm
Yes, USFK should stay, and at number at/near present. I think my position on that has been very clear and consistent.
On the DMZ soldiers are needlessly vulnerable, which is in part what prompted the move to Pyeongtaek, where they will not be.