Japanese Fighters Thump Korean Martial Artists
by James Na ~ May 28th, 2006. Filed under: Humor, Japan-Korea Relations, Korean Culture, Miscellaneous.The no holds-barred (NHB) fighting world is still trying to digest last night’s complete destruction and humiliation of the old fighting legend Royce Gracie by the reigning welterweight Ultimate Fighting Champion Matt Hughes, who is a quintessential representative of the new breed of mixed martial artists (MMA).
But another fighting event, one that would be of greater interest to the Korea-centric crowd, took place a few days ago in Asia. In an event that is sure to enrage Korean sports and fight fans, Japanese fighters dominated and beat Korean martial artists silly:
I understand Korea is fairly new to mixed martial arts, being most recently a big target for Japanese promotions to expand business in the neighbor country. Now, for this show: take the striking exchanges out of ESPN’s “Best of Hockey Fights.” Add one-dimensional wrestlers with very limited ground skills. Don’t forget poor production values. And the Japanese side literally rolled over their Korean counterparts as soon as the fight hit the mat.
The sport of MMA/NHB fighting is very young, indeed, in Korea. I am sure that, as the popularity of the sport grows in Korea, better prepared Korean fighters will begin to enter the scene and prove that Korean mixed martial artists are not as helpless against more experienced Japanese ones as is the case today.
After all, Korea does boast excellent Judoka, Tae Kwon Do practitioners, amateur wrestlers and occasional boxers.
Still, since the fighting world is heavily contaminated with doses of both testesterone-poisoning and nationalism, the event must have been traumatic and infuriating to Korean sports fans.
And this may also be a good opportunity to raise a pet peeve of mine: the wild claims of “ancient” origins of “Korean” martial arts.
Koreans often consider martial arts like Tae Kwon Do, Yudo, Hapkido and Gumdo as Korean inventions. There are popular references to Tae Kwon Do having an origin of 2,000 years and other such nonsense (or that Yudo comes from a “Korean” martial art of Yusul).
In reality, these supposedly Korean martial arts either originate, or were even copied wholesale, from Japanese ones: Shotokan Karate, Kodokan Judo, Aiki-Jujutsu and Kendo, respectively.
This is not to say that Koreans never had indigenous martial arts. They certainly did, at one point, although there is no indication of how widely they were practiced or to what extent they were shaped by Chinese martial arts.
The reality of the modern, post-Japanese occupation Korean martial arts is, however, that Korean martial arts are largely clones of Japanese ones, started by men who trained in Japanese systems during the occupation. Due to hyper-nationalism stemming from a sense of inferiority, however, this is not something that is acknowledged readily in Korea. In turn, the myths of their “Korean” origins are also transplanted in the U.S. where Korean martial artists have made enormous inroads.
The only exception to this national self-delusion is the Korean folks wrestling sport of Ssireum. Of course, folk wrestling is not unique to Korea. Indians, Chinese, Mongolians, Japanese all have folk wrestling forms that are remarkably similar to each other.
Nonetheless, Ssireum can be counted as perhaps the only major Korean “martial art” form that did not begin as a Japanese clone. In fact, I personally find Ssireum matches much more kinetic, technical and exciting than, say, Japanese Sumo. And that is reflected in the athletes as well — unlike tubby Sumo wrestler who have trouble carrying their own weight on their knees, Ssireum contestants are usually lean, muscular and highly athletic in, er, the traditional sense.
The traditional Korean archery system of Goongdo (Gungdo) is also not particularly affected by Japanese Kyudo, and is likely older than the Japanese counterpart. Goongdo probably owes its origin to the Central Asian and Manchurian archery traditions, as Koreans also use the highly effective composite “Mongol” horn bow whereas the Japanese practitioners use the less effective and clumsier (larger) bamboo bow (in fact, the Japanese forces — armed with arquebusiers — who invaded Korea during the Hideyoshi/Imjin Wars observed that Korean weaponry was generally inferior to Japanese ones, except the Korea bow, which was deemed more powerful and effective than Japanese ones).
I suppose this superior Korean archery tradition is reflected in the modern Olympic sport of archery where Korean men and women easily dominate and win gold medal after gold medal.
May 28th, 2006 at 12:37 pm
“In reality, these supposedly Korean martial arts either originate, or were even copied wholesale, from Japanese ones: Shotokan Karate, Kodokan Judo, Aiki-Jujutsu and Kendo, respectively.”
Copy is really strong word. Sure Japanese Karate had influence on Taekyon to form modern taekwondo, but so did chinese martial art on karate. Karate, like japanese writing, is simplified “copy” of the chinese. If anything Chinese are major influence for both japan and korean martial arts…
May 28th, 2006 at 11:08 pm
Way back in the mists of time (late 1980s/early 1990s?), “Black Belt” US magazine (IIRC) did a step by step comparison of a TKD poomse (sp?), with a Shotokan karate kata. Allowing for slight variations or repetitions of steps, to my eye they looked identical. So “copy” may be a little strong, but perhaps not by a lot.
May 30th, 2006 at 10:25 pm
First, with Judo (Yudo) and Kendo (Gumdo), there is no dispute whatsoever.
With Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido, the lineage is rather clear. If one looks at the Korean “founders” of the respective arts, they were students of the Japanese versions.
I’ve heard and read much about “Taekkyon,” and even saw a so-called Taekkyon demonstration. Let’s just say, I remain skeptical of its past existence as a unique, indigenous martial art.
As for the Japanese systems being influenced by the Chinese, the Japanese themselves fully acknowledge this, despite the fact that the Japanese internalized older Chinese systems and significantly developed these further on their own.
Neither the acknowledgement of the Japanese influence nor the process of significant internal development is present in these “Korean” arts… unless one counts theatrical exaggerations in movements.
June 2nd, 2006 at 12:43 pm
Trivial, but…
Almost all the founders of the original taekwondo schools (before it was called taekwondo) had learned karate, and this was what they taught, forms included. They added new techniques and approaches over time, though. Modern tkd is sufficiently different from its roots that it deserves to be considered a uniquely Korean style.
As for taekkyon, there’s more than enough proof to recognize it as an art with a long history in Korea. This proof consists of modern and historical documents, as well as video. The oldest reference to taekkyon in writing dates back to the late 18th Century, while there’s ample photographic and video footage of Song Duk-ki, the last surviving practicioner from before Korea’s colonization.
It’s not right to think of taekkyon as a formalized martial art, handed down from master to student. It was obviously more of a folk practice, something that common people did, with no special organization.
June 6th, 2006 at 10:37 am
And this is more often than not unacknowledged in Korea or in Korean literature promoting the same as “uniquely Korean” martial arts.
And what are these differences?
And what are these proofs?
June 8th, 2006 at 1:58 pm
There are several sites that trace the origin of TKD back to the Silla Dynasty. I think it’s fair to say that the art is ancient. Whether or not it was a “copy” of another martial art will never be known. It doesn’t really matter because it’s technique is different from karate. Though there are similar elements, the emphasis in TKD is the use of kicks and of footwork. If you were to see two men fighting, one using karate and the other using TKD, you could surely distinguish the two.
June 8th, 2006 at 2:25 pm
Hwarang-Do! Right? Bawahahahaha!
Having trained in both TKD and Shotokan Karate, I remain unconvinced… except maybe that TKD has added some theatrical kicking techniques that almost never show up in a real fight.
June 8th, 2006 at 3:06 pm
I’m sure your summer school classes at the local ymca makes you an expert in both arts. A side kick in Karate is thrown differently than in TKD. Your inability to see the difference does not mean it does not exist.
Brazilian jiu-jitsu is also different than Japanese jiu-jitsu. Most people cannot see the difference, but there are several. Can bjj be considered a different art? Yes, perhaps the roots are the same but it is still distinct.
June 8th, 2006 at 3:41 pm
See that’s where your assumptions make you… you know what.
I trained in TKD in ROK. Went to Kukiwon (WTF HQ) in front of the masters to earn my first black belt many many typhoons ago. I learned “old school” TKD loooooong before Olympic mania hit, by the way.
I also trained in Shotokan in Japan.
Having trained in Aikido as well (Aikikai-affiliated), I am very familiar with Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu school of “Japanese Jujutsu,” and know that JJJ and BJJ are very different… But for reasons I will elaborate below (likely not what you were thinking).
While I haven’t gone to Brazil to train in BJJ (been invited to do so by a couple of instructors), I have been an avid practitioner of it, and I investigated the history of BJJ in detail. Simply put, it is a direct descendant of Kodokan Judo.
Yes, I know many BJJ instructors either falsely or ignorantly claim that BJJ descends from “Japanese Jiu-Jitsu” and that the Gracies were taught by a “Japanese Jiu-Jitsu master” Esai Maeda.
But Maeda was a Kodokan blackbelt. In fact, BJJ is remarkably similar to Kosen Judo, a form of Judo that emphasizes ground grappling (the ties between Kosen and Kodokan are preserved to this date although Kano Jigoro discouraged too much ground grappling in Kodokan curriculum, because he believed that this would retard the Nage-Waza/throw technique proficiency).
Since 1945, Kodokan Judo took a radically different turn due to the policies of the US occupation forces (no martial arts) while BJJ folks took off their gi, climbed into rings and started competing Luta Livre (Judo changes quite a bit when you start throwing kicks, knees, elbows and headbutts and no “handles” of the dogi, though to be fair, Kano wanted to incorporate striking into Kodokan when death took him).
And, yes, this faulty BJJ claim of “Japanese Jiu-Jitsu” ancestry without mentioning much about Kodokan Judo is extremely annoying to me as well.
One has to be careful about perusing through information about martial arts, especially Internet sites. Martial arts, as an industry and a discipline, are plagued by testesterone-poisoning, nationalism, mythology and a lot of other nonsense. Compounded by the dearth of serious scholarship, much of the information given out by instructors or the fans are simply inaccurate.
For example, this Silla-origin of TKD is one of those ridiculous claims without any historical evidence whatsoever. TKD is a direct descendant of Shotokan, pure and simple. The historical evidences (of TKD founders having trained in Shotokan and taught it as such) are indisputable. If there was any “martial art” during the Three Kingdoms or the Unified Silla period, likely it dealt with weapon-handling and horsemanship, not punching and kicking and screaming Kihap/Kiai. There was likely some kind of folk wrestling that may or may not have included striking. It is likely (though by no means certain) that such a system probably evolved into Ssireum and/or Sumo.
Lastly, I have never been, nor am I currently, a member of YMCA, local or otherwise.
June 8th, 2006 at 5:43 pm
Haha. Nice. My apologies for the assumption, I encounter many people on the web who talk about martial arts as if they are masters but only study enough to get beat up.
You also make an assumption that I don’t know the history of BJJ. I need to correct you on a couple of points.
1) Jigoro Kano, founder of Kodokan Judo, studied Jiu Jitsu first. Kano developed Judo from JJ.
2) Mitsuo Maeda studies JJ (Fusen Ryu) then studied under Kano.
3) Maeda teaches Carlos Gracie (father of Carlson Gracie)
I have trained with Carlson Gracie directly and my current teacher is a blackbelt of Carlson Gracie. What he taught me was what his father taught him. It’s much different than today’s Judo.
It could be argued that BJJ ultimately came from JJJ. It’s clear that out of all of this, two schools of thought developed from JJJ. Judo focuses more on the stand up game and BJJ focuses more on the ground game. Both of them very distinct but share the same root. To say that BJJ is a mere copy of Judo would be incorrect.
I think the same argument could be made with TKD. If it does share the same root as Karate, it has developed into a different martial art. Whether or not it’s “ancient”…who cares as long as it gets the job done.
June 9th, 2006 at 12:22 am
I wouldn’t claim to be a master at anything except watching TV and drinking beer and perhaps burning up a copious amount of ammunition occasionally.
And, also, anyone can be “beat up” given the right (or wrong) circumstances. If you haven’t taking a beating, you just haven’t fought enough.
There is no need for a “correction.”
While, yes, Kano studied Jujutsu, his development of Judo was nothing less than revolutionary. Many of the trappings, methodology and training we associate with the modern martial arts, such as belt/ranking system, dogi/dobok, codified curriculum, systematic Randori/sparring, analysis of the mechanics/leverage of the techniques are Kano’s (and Judo’s) gifts.
“Following the tradition” wasn’t enough for Kano. He married what he learned with Western/scientific concepts of physicial training to create Judo. There is a reason why Kano’s pupils tore through all the Jujutsuka who participated in the two Japanese police tournaments (the UFC or PFC of its day).
Kano’s revolution of Jujutsu into Judo cannot be compared to Korean Karateka re-packaging Shotokan as TKD by adding a few theatrical kicks and inventing silly claims of 2,000 year-old art or Hwarang origins or other nonsense.
As for Maeda, yes he was a Jujutsuka first, but he later trained in Kodokan and became a Judoka. What he taught later in his life to the Gracies was Judo, not Jujutsu.
The fundamental techniques of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu are EXACTLY IDENTICAL to those found in the complete Judo curriculum. What is different is the set of rules as in play today. Different rules of the game means that you end up seeing different games despite identical techniques. In my view, it is more a matter of emphasis rather than being distinct, separate systems.
While it is also true that BJJ had an earlier participation in the modern NHB/MMA phenomenon (like I put before, taking off the gi and learning to go Luta Livre) and claimed Judo techniques as its own to gullible fight audiences, Judoka are catching up with fighters like Karo Parisyan and Hidehiko Yoshida.
And, at its peak, you cannot compare the level of competition Judoka face at the Olympics to that “BJJ World Championships” draw.
Besides, it seems to me that truly mixed martial art schools like Chute-Box are tearing through products of one-dimensional schools including BJJ schools.
By the way, the proper English transliteration is “Jujutsu” not “Jiu-Jitsu,” which is a corruption. When referring to BJJ, I still use “Jiu-Jitsu,” only because the Brazilians are free to call their thing whatever they wish to call it.
Lastly, under which student of Carlson Gracie’s do you train?
Before I move from Seattle, my instructor was Marcelo Alonso, who was the head instructor of Carlson’s “champion factory” in Rio. Marcelo is also a Judo blackbelt (as is one of my earlier BJJ instructors, Pedro Silveira). I received some good old-fashioned ass-kicking under the tutelage of both (who are physically dimunitive men). I will never forget Marcelo correcting my “businessman’s choke.”
June 9th, 2006 at 12:23 am
Forgot to address this one. If it’s patently false, why claim it? There is an integrity issue there.
June 9th, 2006 at 8:27 am
Yes, Kano was revolutionary in the sense that he modified training techniques, but the actual techniques that he used were JJ. Modified to prevent injury in training but you can’t tell me that he “created” all basic positions. I would agree that he developed many techniques. But I would also say that judo has evolved and there are techniques that Kano didn’t develop. Just like BJJ has evolved and TKD has evolved.
“The fundamental techniques of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu are EXACTLY IDENTICAL to those found in the complete Judo curriculum.”
The fundamental techniques of Judo are EXACTLY IDENTICAL to those found in JJ. If you’re talking about fundamentals, then Judo is a copy JJ.
“As for Maeda, yes he was a Jujutsuka first, but he later trained in Kodokan and became a Judoka. What he taught later in his life to the Gracies was Judo, not Jujutsu”
Again, if the root of Judo is JJ and the root of BJJ is judo, then you can make the argument that the root of BJJ is JJ.
“By the way, the proper English transliteration is “Jujutsu” not “Jiu-Jitsu,” which is a corruption. When referring to BJJ, I still use “Jiu-Jitsu,” only because the Brazilians are free to call their thing whatever they wish to call it.”
Why aren’t Koreans free to call their thing what ever they wish? Why wouldn’t you raise the point to Brazilians that BJJ is judo? Isn’t there an integrity issue with that?
When I’m not rehabbing injuries I train with Maguilla. Maguilla originally trained under Carlson, then with Andre Pederneiras. Carlson’s had tons of head instructors over the years, but I have met students of Marcelo Alonso while traveling abroad.
June 12th, 2006 at 11:21 pm
He did so much more than that. Prior to Kano, Jujutsu was taught based on “scrolls” whereby select students were taught additional techniques inherited from masters. Students were expected to follow such techniques without question.
Kano combined Western scientific regimen to Judo/Jujutsu techniques and emphasized such concepts as angles and leverage rather than “tradition says so.” In other words, he applied the science of Newtonian physics to the traditional techniques. This was nothing short of a great revolution.
First, Koreans can call their thing whatever they want as well. But they should acknowledge where their art came from — Shotokan Karate. That is, Japan. Brazilians acknowledge fully (in fact, proudly) the fact that their art came from Japan. They don’t pretend that ancient Brazilians of 1,000 years ago invented BJJ.
Additionally, I wish the art were called Brazilian Judo, not Brazilian Jujutsu. I make this point where I can. But a part of the motivation might have been that there was a separate system called Brazilian Judo already (whose practitioners also trace their lineage proudly to Maeda). If I may speculate, the Gracies might have been trying to distinguish their thing from Brazilian Judo.
I don’t know what you mean by “tons of head instructors” or whether that is meant to diminish Marcelo’s status. Marcelo was Carlson’s head instructor from 87 to 96, and was responsible for the training of many of today’s top Brazilian MMA champions (I think he trained something like 300 champions at various levels). I mean absolutely no disrespect to Maguilla who might be a great instructor, but he was barely 2 years into BJJ training when Marcelo was already the head instructor for Carlson. I think Marcelo is due just a tad more respect in the sport than “Oh, Carlson had a ton of head instructors, so what?” type of attitude.
And the crazy thing is, Marcelo still competes despite his age and past injuries (an amazing thing, considering that Judo is far harder on the body, especially on the knees at competitive levels). I don’t miss much about Seattle, but one thing I miss is training with Marcelo. He also had (has still, I’m sure) a great group of early students (mostly Seattle PD and SWAT) who were some of the most mature, patient, learning-oriented and non-confrontational martial arts training partners I ever had. There was absolutely no trace of “thug-jitsu” or “every class a competition” mentality that is so common at some schools.
July 1st, 2006 at 8:29 am
If you ever see Korean martial arts of Chondosul, WonHwaDo or Tae kyon you cannot find any japanese trace even in the belt or grading systems but are many others styles in Korea.Naturally any country of the region can influence other but Korea have is own martial arts traditions and history.
July 3rd, 2006 at 10:25 pm
having trained and taught in TKD since I was three, I’ve always read, engaged in and hated these debates on who started what when how.
it’s pretty hilarious to see one end up on the Korea Liberator, though.
awesome.
July 4th, 2006 at 11:32 pm
Well, like many things like literature and the arts, fighting arts are a part of culture and history.
Unfortunately, due to testesterone-poisoning and shoddy (or no) scholarship, not to mention perpetuation of deliberate myth-making falsehoods, accurate and reliable knowledge of the history of these fighting arts is difficult to come by.
The Korean claims on Tae Kwon Do and even Judo (e.g. many Korean sources have claimed that “Yudo” comes from “Yusul,” a “medieval Korean martial art”) — especially that they are over 1,000 years old — are comically flawed.
Yet for reasons of nationalism, these lies are continually perpetuated.
It’s about time that they acknowledge the true lineage and move on.
Tae Kwon Do came from Funakoshi’s Shotokan Karate, period, pure and simple. It did not come from Silla or Hwarang or whatever other kinds of mythic origins Koreans care to trot out to hide their “shame” that — gasp — something of theirs originated from Japan (esp. recently).
July 17th, 2006 at 10:18 am
Still you dont really know about Chondosul or WonHwaDo and talk with such “Truth” about Korean martial arts.The Okinawan Karate came from China and Funakoshi also change the Chinese word of the art tohide the Chinese roots of Karate.So some Koreans do the same but not all arts many skills were also keep by the Budhist monks in the Temples and later passed to the public.
July 18th, 2006 at 9:40 am
If you visit yearly the Chungju World Martial Arts Festival in Korea you will see the reality of the Korean martial arts and world matial arts by your self.This festival is unique in the world in Europe only Paris/Bercy Festival can come near,the WoMAU founded in Korea doing a good job for the world martial arts.We bad but also good from that country.
July 19th, 2006 at 12:55 am
Forgot about this. It’s an unimportant subject, but you (James) asked, anyway. Some historical references to taekkyon are as follows. All of the written works are available at either the Seoul National University library or the National Library.
A) 才物譜 (재물보) by 이성지
written during the Jeongjo reign (1777-1800)
It’s sort of an encyclopedia of Chosun stuff. It has the following entry for “卞”, one meaning of which in Classical Chinese was “to strike with the hands.” It says:
手搏爲卞 角力爲武 苦今之 탁견
Everything before “similar to today’s takkyon” is part of a quote from a Chinese text (I don’t remember the name, but it discusses several “people’s” styles, like wrestling). The full quote is:
手搏爲卞 角力爲武戱
B) 조선무사영웅전 by 안확
published 1919
A quote from this book, with no attempt to translate it nicely:
“When young people play hitting games (박희) these days, they do so-called taekkyon (택견), which is a little different from ssirum. When they play, the people on either side make two groups, and then they start a “battle.” That battle was played by two or three people using skills like 두발낭성 or 딴죽…Therefore when they fight in groups, they use taekkyon skills.”
C) 海東竹枝 (해동죽지) by 최영년
published 1921
This book contains descriptions of various things, places, and practices in Korea. Each entry is followed by a description and a poem. The entry for 탁견 (phonetically represented as 托肩) is next to the one for ssirum. Here’s the whole unbroken text. Note the “계” in there. This is a problem with the encoding on my (Linux) system. It should be the hanja for “topknot.”
舊俗有脚術相對而立互蹴倒有三法最下者蹴其腿善者托其肩有飛脚術者落其계以此或報仇或睹奪愛姬自法官禁止今無是戱名之曰탁견
Divided into sentences, with my inadequate trans.
舊俗有脚術
An old custom was a leg art.
相對而立互蹴倒
Standing face to face, players tried to kick each other.
有三法
There were three methods.
最下者蹴其腿
The lowest level was to kick the opponent’s leg (thigh).
善者托其肩
Experts pushed the opponent’s shoulder.
有飛脚術者落其계
Those with the flying leg art pushed down the opponent’s topknot.
以此或報仇或睹奪愛姬
In this way some avenged grievances, and others gambled to get beautiful girls (concubines) they favored.
自法官禁止
By law it was banned by the government.
今無
Now it cannot be found.
是戱名之曰탁견
This games’ name was called takkyon.
Here’s the poem, which I have no intention of translating. The first line is easy, though: “100 skills, this amazing (lit. supernatural) art of flying legs.”
百技神通飛脚術
輕輕掠過髮簪高
鬪花自是風流性
一奪貂蟬意氣豪
D) 조선어사전 by 문세영
published 1938
This dictionary has the following entry for 결련태껸:
갑동과 을동이 각각 편을 먹고 승부를 결하는 태껸.
E) 조선상고사 by 신채호
published 1946
another dictionary with an entry for 덕견
F) A painting called 대쾌도, probably painted in the mid 1800’s shows what is obviously ssirum along with something else. This is either taekkyon/takkyon, or something that is never mentioned in extant historical texts (it’s certainly not TKD). Last time I checked it was here:
http://crylow.com.ne.kr/kofan3.jpg
The person who transmitted taekkyon to modern Korea was 송덕기 (1893-1987). Unlike the unknown monks and hermits who supposedly passed on so many “traditional” styles, like Hwarangdo, Kicheon, and what have you, Mr. Song and the things he taught have appeared in newspapers, books, film and video. You can see some pictures here:
http://www.kimsookarate.com/gallery-old-days/song-duk-ki.html
There are some video files at the KTV archive site. These only work with Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player. Linking to videos on the site never seems to work, so you can do the following. Go here:
http://film.ktv.go.kr/index.jsp
Then click on the box that says 영상 전체목록 above the Windows Media Player link. This will take you a page with a search field. Enter 택견 in this field. This will give you five results. Each video has some taekkyon footage in it (the TKD one has about a minute), several with 송덕기. The longest one is 31 minutes.
I have no intention of discussing this stuff any further on this site. If you do, James, then please email me directly. Otherwise, I’m finished.
August 6th, 2006 at 10:29 am
Koreanisation’ of budo overseas
http://www.kendo- world.com/art icles/web/korea/inde x.php
“in a nationwide revisionist stance, Koreans for the most part refuse to entertain the notion that the sport’s origins lie in Japan, and instead call it “kumdo”, insisting that it originated in Korea.”
August 6th, 2006 at 10:39 am
Problems in the identity and Philosophy of Taegwondo and Their Historical Causes
http://www.bstkd.com/CAPENER.1.HTM
“The main cause of these problems is found in the history of t’aegwondo’s origins. The fact that t’aegwondo was first brought into Korea from Japan in the form of Japanese karate around the time of the liberation of Korea from Japanese colonial rule, and the way this fact has been dealt with in Korea has left many serious inconsistencies [81] in the way t’aegwondo has been developed within Korea and propagated abroad.
This process of development can be broadly outlined as follows: Japanese karate called kongsudo or tangsudo was introduced to Korea just after liberation from Japan by Koreans who had learned karate in Japan. Upon returning, these Koreans opened karate gymnasiums promoting what they were teaching as karate, much like the process followed by the early Judo instructors. Well after these schools became established, the need to “Koreanize” was felt. The process of Koreanization consisted of three main aspects. The first was the selection of a new, non-Japanese name. The second was the creation of a system of techniques and training which was distinctly different from that of karate, and the third was the attempt to establish t’aegwondo’s existence and development within tile historical flow of Korean civilization.”
August 6th, 2006 at 10:51 am
James wrote:
“Having trained in both TKD and Shotokan Karate, I remain unconvinced… except maybe that TKD has added some theatrical kicking techniques that almost never show up in a real fight.”
I echo this, though I have not trained in Shotokan Karate (but I have worked out with people who have). In particular, the resemblance in the kata system and most of the hand techniques is stunning.
As James says, the only significant difference between TKD and Shotokan Karate appears to be TKD’s greater utilization of kicks (though I would somewhat disagree with James and others who feel high kicks are ineffective in real combat).
August 6th, 2006 at 10:55 am
James wrote:
“Forgot to address this one. If it’s patently false, why claim it? There is an integrity issue there.”
Agreed.
August 6th, 2006 at 11:05 am
Rhesus,
I think you are missing the main thrust of James’ point. I tend to agree with you that there is some evidence of an indigenous tradition of unarmed martial arts in Korea.
The point, however, is whether there is a direct relation between these indigenous martial arts and modern-day TKD.
My understanding is that by the beginning or the middle of the twentieth century, most of these martial arts were “lost.” Certainly I have seen no evidence that they were the primary influences on the putative founders of TKD like General Choi Hong-hi. But as James points out, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that men like Choi Hong-hi were influenced by modern Karate. So unless you can provide a persuasive version of this “missing link,” I will remain skeptical.
August 6th, 2006 at 11:18 am
Last point:
Someone above also said that there is a difference between how Shotkan Karatekas and how a TKD practitioners throw a sidekick. Yes, but this is hardly a persuasive evidence of fundamentally different origins of Shotokan Karate and TKD.
In fact, there are significant differences between how TKD kicks are executed and how TKD’s Korean forerunners execute the same kicks. In fact, WTF kicks differ significantly from ITF kicks. Does this mean WTF-style TKD and ITF-style TKD do not share the same origin?
August 6th, 2006 at 2:05 pm
The post that will not die…
Won Joon Choe:
August 6th, 2006 at 2:09 pm
Sorry, screwed up the blockquotes. Another try:
Won Joon Choe said:
“I think you are missing the main thrust of James’ point.”
Me:
I was responding specifically to this question of James’ about the historical presence of taekkyon in Korea: “And what are these proofs?”
I gave some specific examples, not of “an indigenous tradition of unarmed martial arts” but of taekkyon being cited in historical works, and performed by a real practitioner, who was alive into the 1980s. That’s it.
If you’d read my first post, you would have seen that I don’t believe there is a formal connection between tkd and any “traditional” martial arts whatsoever, taekkyon included.
August 6th, 2006 at 2:31 pm
Rhesus,
Mea culpa–big time.
I mixed your posts on tae-kyon up with Dane’s post on the Silla roots of TKD.
August 25th, 2006 at 9:57 am
Shorinji Kempo techniques came mainly from China as well Taikiken and now are Japanese martial arts.The same with Capoeira wich came from my home country of Angola and now is Brasilian style as the Gracie Jujitsu.The Japanese allways gave troubles to the people of Korea so the resentement is still alive Japan is still the bad ghost there.Will take few more generations to solve this.
September 3rd, 2006 at 6:52 am
I really don’t think any of you guys know much about Japanese OR Korean history… Japan only became a proper country only after they got help from China and Korea. Without us, Japan wouldn’t even have existed. Japan is FAMOUS in Asia for making up fake evidence and elliminating the real ones. That is the reason why they are so hated in East Asia - they lie to make them look more superior. Even the Japanese characters are similar to Chinese ‘ping ying’ - they are not developed! Look at their kimonos, they are very ancient. They were the clothes Chinese and Koreans used to wear in 100BC, except their are longer with thicker waist bands. Their artifacts were highly influenced from Baekjae. Their culture is highly influenced by Korea. Some of you people don’t even know what is going on in East Asia, just blabbling on and on and making shitty comments on both sides. China didn’t even bother - the Japanese were too barbaric for them to care (not blaming. They were busy with Mongolians and their own little tribes anyway). I mean, the system in ancient Japan was ‘the strong guys live’ - the Samurai people just killed the weaker people. So Japan must be developed with weapons and martial arts. Korea, on the other hand, was busy drawing pictures, thinking of new inventions, trying to find out how to stop all the Japanese looters and the Chinese from invading our country (Koreans were being harrassed), study this and study that… Koreans were developed in other way.
September 3rd, 2006 at 11:29 am
Oh please, let it end…
September 5th, 2006 at 7:52 am
You see what I mean?
September 11th, 2006 at 9:10 am
I agree with the comment posted by”me” persona.I live in Malaysia for more then 7 years and have being in Korea for more then 6 months 1989 time of students anti governements demos Chung Ju City Chola province there were many street fightings with the police and the Police station in Chung Ju City central shoping area was burned by students etc.So I am no rookie to Asia affairs my wife is Malaysian (ethnic Chinese) and had relatives killed by Japanese in Malaysia during 2nd World War.The Budhism was also introduced in Japan by Korean Monks.But the Japanese were just some tribe of barbarians Chinese called Yamato who went there and killed the Aino people the original habitants of that land now left only few thousands livng still in Hokkaido.Even so every culture have is good and bad points including the Korean.To be able to admit “Mea Culpa” have bene a big issue for many countries
September 17th, 2006 at 7:50 pm
Its true but most agree TKD is a mix of Korean AND Japanese Martial Arts it seems pretty ignorant to say
“Tae Kwon Do came from Funakoshi’s Shotokan Karate, period, pure and simple. It did not come from Silla or Hwarang or whatever other kinds of mythic origins Koreans care to trot out to hide their “shame””
do you have a problem?
why do you assume Koreans must be lying about Yusul?
I think Koreans for the most part wouldnt accept that TKD and other Modern Korean Martial Arts have Japanese influences
but does Japan admit to its war crimes?
or that Japans first Emperor was Korean and that Yamato was started by Koreans?
does it admit that Real Civilization came from Korea [of course much of this came from China but there were also strong Korean influences as well ] does Japan admit any of this? nope, nada, no. alot of countries usually deny something becasue it doesnt work with national pride its hardly something new
btw what about Korean Martial Arts like Hwa Rang Do,Soobak,Choson Sebop and so forth?
September 20th, 2006 at 5:18 pm
Look up “ad hominem.”
Your simplification of East Asian history is comical.
When the first Yamato “emperor” ruled, there was no such thing as “Korea” (or “Japan”) for that matter.
Here is something that will raise your BP and HR: there is some evidence that the modern Japanese language is closer to what inhabitants of Goguryeo spoke than the modern Korean language is.
Now I gave you a topic, go talk amongst yourselves.
September 20th, 2006 at 7:27 pm
yes it is simplifed but as someone above me mentioned many people dont seem to understand much about Korean or Japanese history
yes Yamato was started by a Korean prince, a prince from the Korean Kingdom of Baekje from the Korean Peninsula hence they are Koreans from different kingdoms yes, but still Koreans. Yamato was Japans first Dyanasty you are correct it really wasnt what we would call Modern day Japan but from a historical viewpoint it is recognized as Japans first Dyanasty so I have not simplifed it as much as you presume.
BP and HR: dont know what this means
“there is some evidence that the modern Japanese language is closer to what inhabitants of Goguryeo spoke than the modern Korean language is.” and? are you inferring that Japan influenced Goguryeo language? I do not understand
September 21st, 2006 at 12:37 am
Yeah? Who?
By that logic, we should call ancient Romans Italians (in the modern ethno-national sense).
The fact is, the most we can say for inhabitants of, say, Goguryeo or Baekje is that they were likely proto-Koreans.
During the time period in question, most of East Asia away from Chinese civilizational centers existed in confederation of various tribes with nary an inkling of a modern day national identity. Instead, there was this dichotomy of a relatively integrated overall commercial and cultural zone with the various ethno-tribal groups living inside it.
Assigning them labels like “Korean” and “Japanese” which only have meaning based on modern territoriality and citizenship are anachronistic for that time.
No. There is an intriguing possibility that modern Japanese preserved more of Goguryeo language than modern Korean has, which could be an evidence that the former is more of an heir to Guguryeo civilization as such than the latter.
BP and HR refer to blood pressure and heart rate.
September 22nd, 2006 at 3:48 pm
Prince Hormuda I cant get a source for you soon
proto-Koreans would eventually become Koreans? correct? yes I know i Simplified but its better then naming all sorts of Kingdoms most people have never heard of
October 2nd, 2006 at 12:25 pm
The reality is simple and looks imperfect as my comand of the english language. For some people all Asians are Mongolian stock or maybe proto mongols as you wrote then we have a situation like the Biblical story of Ismail and Jacob.Actual Arabs and Jews are all descendents of ABRAHAM but have been in war and killing each other until now.The race more genetically similar to the Jews are the Palestinians this was published in a News paper in Malaysia. Maybe this simple and comical for some people but just think about I think there is a similarity with all the nonsense between Koreans, Japanese an Chinese
March 11th, 2007 at 1:10 am
The ancient history of Japan and Korea which Jin wrote in 35 and 37 are the typical distorted story Koreans prefer.
“Korea was conquered by Japan in 20c. But Korea was superior to Japan in ancient era, which conquered Japan and taught the civilized culture to uncivilized Japanese.”
It is the myth of Korean without any evidences. Even Korean history textbook writes so. It shows the typical superior/inferior complex of Korean against Japanese.
After its independence, Korean copied Karate, changed the name to Teakwood, fabricated 2000 years history, deceived people in the world, bribed IOC, and made TKD Olympic sports. Now, their lie was exposed. Even Jin admitted so. Many people know Korean made similar distortions regarding the history of Yudo, Komdo, Hapkido.
Who believes Korean writes an accurate history of ancient period.
February 7th, 2008 at 9:22 am
god what is worng with u james!!!!!
do u like hate koreans or something ?
because it seeems like it
February 7th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
jion999:
While I do not care for the distorted popular accounts of Korean martial art history, I do not think that can then lead to wholesale condemnation of professional historiography in Korea.
hlo:
I do not “hate Koreans or something.” I am ethnically Korean. I was born and partly grew up in Korea.
I just do not see the necessity for inventing fake histories for Korean martial arts. They (or their value) ought to stand on their own merits. I do not see a reason for any shame in the admission that modern Korean martial arts are essentially clones of their Japanese counterparts.
Questioning inaccurate history, Korean or otherwise, is not “hating.” To think otherwise is rather obtuse and silly.
As a side note, there ought to be renewing frothing in the mouth among Japanese and Korean MMA fans since the controversial Kazuo Misaki vs. Yoshihiro Akiyama (Choo Sung Hoon) bout on the New Year’s Eve has now been ruled no contest.
February 7th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
then u ar a disgrace to Korea itself
April 1st, 2008 at 9:33 am
But what James Na said is accurate………
James Na:
Actually, Goongdo is clone of Japanese Kyudo….. except the bow they use. Also, their bows are overestimated. Arrows shot from those bows even fail to penetrate simple armors made out of paper.
April 1st, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Goongdo is most assuredly NOT a “clone of Japanese Kyudo.” Unlike, say, Tae Kwon Do, Korean archery was well-established throughout Korean pre-modern history.
The Korean composite horn bows and Japanese bamboo (long) bows are also different (see Wikipedia’s entries on Korean Goongdo, Japanese Kyudo and the related practice of Yabusame).
The Korean bow is based on the highly effective Mongol bow, commonly used by nomads in Central Asia. As far as Central Asian composite bows go, Koreans bows tend to be on the more reflexed side.
Japanese bows also derive from the Central Asian style of bows, but probably of earlier generation that remained unchanged for hundreds of years (hence “less perfected” if you will). They have some resemblance to the Indian (Hindu) bamboo long bows.
Generally I don’t care to engage in silly, nationalistic “our Kung Fu is stronger than your Kung Fu” nonsense, but on the respective battlefield effectiveness of Korean and Japanese bows, the verdict was rather clear.
Japanese commanders in the Imjin/Hideyoshi Wars commented that Japanese armaments (esp. firearms) surpassed all Korean weapons, but one — the bow. They rated the effectiveness of Korean bows as surpassing those of Japan.
I don’t have the exact pull weight in front of me, but I would not be surprised if the Mongol/Korean bows have much greater pull weight (and range) than that of the Japanese bows, despite the latter’s longer length, due to the fact that the former are horn composites and more highly reflexed.
Certainly Mongol/Korean bows were handier on horseback due to their more compact size, and they certainly had no problem piercing rather heavy armor of their targets, provided they used appropriate arrows/heads.
June 15th, 2008 at 12:30 am
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH…Can we just stop with the anger here.
TKD directly comes from Karate. That is an absolute fact. However, TKD adds more variety of kicks and uses a more athletic approach, as opposed to a strength approach. Making them very different. The fact that someone doesn’t like the high flying kicking style or thinks it isn’t practical in a fight (which i agree, it isn’t) doesn’t make it it’s own style.
You say BJJ is unique, but it comes directly from Judo, which comes directly form JJJ as has been stated numerous times. The style of BJJ was modified, making it different.
There is no such thing as an original thought, and very few original fighting styles. Let’s all just grow up and appreciate things for there beauty without having to denigrate other things.
October 29th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Do all of you know this? Historians approved that Korea’s history outlasts Japanese history so; if you have common sence then you would realize that the TKD and other martial arts you say that originated from Japan are FREAKING NOT TRUE.
Therefore, Japan did copy most martial arts from Korea.
October 30th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
I understand. You don’t want me to confuse you with facts. Why live with facts? Myths are way cooler. I get it.
October 30th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
[Moderated for name-calling.]
February 24th, 2009 at 11:29 pm
I am just wondering about this, James. Hlo said, “do u like hate koreans or something ?” And you told him that you are ethically korean right????????
Korea itself does not “copy” from Japan. Korean History is generally longer than Japanese history, so I really don’t understand why you are saying that Korea copied from the Japanese. Since Korea has a longer history, wouldn’t it be that Japan copied from Korea?
Plus, most history books are written from a winner’s point of view.
Korea would be considered as a loser for more than 30 years, so wouldn’t Japan modify the history books to hide that Japan really did copy these arts from Korea?
Another point is that since Japan is a called an “island” with no connection to a body of land, would’t “Japanese” people have to come from a body of land to settle on the “island”??? Korea would be the closest to reach Japan so, from this point of vier wouldn’t it be that “Japanese” people would be Korean people?
And like hlo said, Japanese historians actually did prove that Korea’s history outlasted the Japanese history.
June 9th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
TAEKKYUN is the primary foundation for moderntaekwondo. Please watch any taekkyun video on youtube and you’ll see foryourself where TKD comes from–primarily. Now, I acknowlege the above martial art historians views on the strong/ direct connection to shotokan–well I will believe them and there view. However, Modern TKD was a way to cover up Taekkyun–the true cultural martial art well over 2000 years old. One Hapkido Grandmaster told me that Taekkyun was Korean word for the orginial monastic martial art that ran through China, Korea and Japan. 2000 years ago! So, yes Shotokan highly influneced some individual Korean GM, But I argue that they knew well of their cultural martial art and as many young people are, then and now, want to create something new, which is now modern sport TKD and other versions of korean martial arts. TAEKKYUN is incredible and any martial artist from any background would see the strength and simplicity of its technique. It is also a complete spiritual martial art where:community, dance, song, music, drama:mask and theatrics, acrobatics, tight rope and a who slew of offshoots from Taekkyun. This is my opinion and I am sticking to it!!
One question for someone out there? Who created the Black Belt Poomsea of WTF Taekwondo and when??(Koreo, kuemgang, taebaek, etc.)
June 9th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
One other little fact about Korea they had the worlds first printing press, steel type and movable, it pre-dates the gutenberg press by at least a thousand year–so Korea had it goin on a long time ago, if you know what I mean. . .
June 13th, 2009 at 11:36 am
you know what? lets just drop the topic maybe now james na realizes thd truth and wont hide behind his opinions. you cant change the truth right? the truth is the truth
August 6th, 2009 at 2:58 am
This James Na is faking his own identity here, it doesn’t really matter if he’s Korean or Japanese or what ever he wanted to be. The fact is TKD does acknowledge it’s influence of Karate. Now look at TKD establishment world wide, much bigger than Karate.
If James wanted to argue “who’s your daddy?” then argue with this, Karate is not entirely Japanese origin, it’s originated from Okinawa with Fungfu influence.
With regards to other Japanese MA such as Kendo, Judo & JJ, Akido etc.. they are not originated from Japan at all. Who ever delivered the horse, sword and writing to early Japan was the inventors. Many MAs are offshoot from Buddhism, and who delivered the Buddhism to Japan?
The real fact is, Korea did have their MA until it was oppressed by Japanese during 1900~1940s, and Japan took away many traditional culture from Koreans even Korean language and folk. Even today, Japan still holds over 200,000 ancient Korean artifacts and even tries to registered as it’s own. Almost all ancient Korean writings/reference to Korean MA, military art, weaponry etc.. were either taken to Japan or destroyed. Some of the stuffs were discovered in bulk at their dockyard when Japanese failed to take it to their homeland after Japan lost the WW. If you think about this then I wouldn’t believe any thing Japan is trying claim as many of their claims are known to flimsy and this is why UNESCO doesn’t recognize many Japanese submissions. Japan does not hold single UNESCO registered writings because of their brutal assimilation past of Okinawan, Korean and Ainu people. Most of Japan’s claims are known to be comes from these three people.